Problem: Recieving OOP VS New

kbolster12345 · Post by **kbolster12345** » Mon May 21, 2007 5:43 pm

Recently I purchased from an established trader some models that I believed were new releases. I bought OOP Handgunners but believed them to be the new release.

The person has offered that if I send them back I get a refund but that will cost me money to send it and I also pay a fee for the money order I sent him.

I am upset with the trade but I am looking for other people's opinions as it sort of falls in a grey area. Here is what happened and my feelings on the matter.

1. No where in the post was it stated they were OOP either. To me it's safe to assume they were New Release because a person with this much feedback should have the experience and courtesy to know that OOP stuff should be labeled as so.

Also I aked about condition and was told they were New on Sprue wich they are but when asking about condition it lends it's self to explaining OOP.

2. As far as I can tell the name of a regiment of Handgunners hasn't changed despite being able to make X-bow men out them. To me the person should know better.

3. I paid $5 shipping and it cost the person $1.65. To me $5 shipping from an established trader means Priotrity with DC. This was first class without comfirmation.

As stated the person has offered to send my money back. To me it's fair if and only if the person pays for my shipping and the fee I paid for the MO on top of what I paid for the models and overpriced shipping. I am a little miffed about the situation at the moment and I am looking for help from someone with more grounded judgement.

Hopefully this was a clear explanation and if you have questions hopefully I can answer them.

beowulfdahunter · Post by **beowulfdahunter** » Mon May 21, 2007 6:00 pm

I do not think the guy owes you anything and you are making a big deal out of a problem you caused!

As someone who was dropping their own money on something you should have asked ahead of time. Buyer beware.

I think you should eat the 6.75 you dropped, consider it be lesson leared and be thankful he offered a refund.

MEDEVL · Post by **MEDEVL** » Mon May 21, 2007 6:16 pm

I'd say you need to ask if stuff is the most recent. Keep in mind if guys don't follow closely what's going on with new releases it's pretty easy to fall behind and not realize something is OOP. I agree that poeple should know but it's really on you to make sure you know what you're getting. It would be different if he had asdvertised them as the newest releases...
As to the shipping that's one of my personal pet peeves. Charging extra for shipping is just stealing and nobody will convince me otherwise. I don't want to hear about the cost of boxes and gas. You're not a business, you're some guy trading toys on the internet. Part of your "cost" for doing that is finding a box, putting stuff in it, and driving to the post office. It's not the job of your trading partner to compensate you for that, it's the cost you incur for trading/selling them. So on that front I don't think you're in the wrong for expecting the guy to give you back the 3 or 4 bucks.

kbolster12345 · Post by **kbolster12345** » Mon May 21, 2007 6:21 pm

beowulfdahunter wrote:I do not think the guy owes you anything and you are making a big deal out of a problem you caused!

As someone who was dropping their own money on something you should have asked ahead of time. Buyer beware.

I think you should eat the 6.75 you dropped, consider it be lesson leared and be thankful he offered a refund.

So you believe that it's up to the buyer to ask what edition things are?

What if something was converted? Should I need to ask that too?

beowulfdahunter · Post by **beowulfdahunter** » Mon May 21, 2007 6:39 pm

Golly have you ever bought a car before? You ask about every little thing. sorry but I can't feel srry for ya.

Sandy Death · Post by **Sandy Death** » Mon May 21, 2007 6:43 pm

Hi Kevin,
Sorry to hear about your unfortunate trade/deal. Just my opinion, but if the seller offers you your money back and pays for the shipping (since he has $3.35 left over) that to me would be close enough.

I, myself, would not risk my reference/feedback over a small amount of money.

My policy for trading is I take photos of the items, post them and then send my counterpart the link to view them. I also spell out all the details in an email and say that is our official deal and when they reply positively that is our official contract.

BTW, the Empire models I had were several years old too, so not your current models.

Maybe another time we can trade.

Sandy Death

ancientsociety · Post by **ancientsociety** » Mon May 21, 2007 6:44 pm

I think if they're an established trader (which from your OP, I assume they are), they should have known better than to not include "OOP", especially seeing as there are new handgunners out now.

beowulfdahunter wrote:I do not think the guy owes you anything and you are making a big deal out of a problem you caused!

As someone who was dropping their own money on something you should have asked ahead of time. Buyer beware.

I think you should eat the 6.75 you dropped, consider it be lesson leared and be thankful he offered a refund.

Ummmm, no. The other trader misrepresented (or at least failed to properly represent) their items. Established traders know better than to not include any info when they make posts. Not to mention kbolster asked about the item specifics via PM and the other trader failed to mention they were OOP.

Beowulf, by your rationale, sellers have no obligation to list condition/edition/etc., which is silly. Established traders know better than to just put "Handgunners" in a trade ad, without including any extenuating info (such as "NIB, used, OOP, etc.").

kbolster12345 · Post by **kbolster12345** » Mon May 21, 2007 6:55 pm

By established I mean over 500 feedback.

@ Sandy: I am still down with our trade negotiations. YOU made it clear that they were OOP and I am able to make an educated judgement on your models.

BTW I am trading for your models based on this deal I am asking for help with.

Alsiaie · Post by **Alsiaie** » Mon May 21, 2007 7:20 pm

beowulfdahunter wrote: Buyer beware.

You can't blame the seller for your failure to request pictures of the product. Yes, the seller SHOULD know better but that is hardly an excuse. It's the buyer's responsibility to probe the seller to acquire missing or correct questionable information. If that means passing up a deal because of refusal or availability of information, especially photographs then so be it.

kbolster12345 · Post by **kbolster12345** » Mon May 21, 2007 7:30 pm

Alsiaie wrote:
beowulfdahunter wrote: Buyer beware.

You can't blame the seller for your failure to request pictures of the product. Yes, the seller SHOULD know better but that is hardly an excuse. It's the buyer's responsibility to probe the seller to acquire missing or correct questionable information. If that means passing up a deal because of refusal or availability of information, especially photographs then so be it.

Did you miss the part were I asked for more info? If he neglects to disclose fully it's condition after asking for more information, it's back on him.

Lormax · Post by **Lormax** » Mon May 21, 2007 8:00 pm

Buyer beware. If you asked for more info, and he didn't disclose the info you were looking for, ask specifically for the info you wanted. Your OP said that you asked about the condition of the models, which he answered. After that, you posted "To me it's safe to assume..."...assumption is the mother of all f'ups. Unless you specifically asked about the age/edition/version/whatever of the model, I can see why he left it out. I REALLY doubt he left it out to be malicious or to keep information from you..he also may not have even known they were OOP. Good example is the Tau codex I acquired in a trade recently along with a bunch of models...I skimmed through it, assuming it was the latest version. I later saw a friends Tau codex and it was completely different...suffice to say, I had no idea I had the old Tau Codex and I've been playing 40k for 15 years.

If you're really that peeved about it, take the refund and go your seperate ways. There's plenty worse that could have happened...you could have "hypothetically" ordered from a "hypothetical" internet store

kbolster12345 · Post by **kbolster12345** » Mon May 21, 2007 8:09 pm

I did order from the "Hypothetical Store".

Well this is intersting feedback. I will keep this in mind when trading in the future. I bet I can get some much better trades.

kbolster12345 · Post by **kbolster12345** » Mon May 21, 2007 9:19 pm

kbolster12345 wrote:I did order from the "Hypothetical Store".

Well this is intersting feedback. I will keep this in mind when trading in the future. I bet I can get some much better trades.

I need to apologize for this statement. I just am in disbelief that people feel that it is the buyer's fualt with things aren't presented in a way that is the WHOLE truth.

BTW this person did know that these were OOP as his PM back to me told me that the new stuff is multi part models.

ancientsociety · Post by **ancientsociety** » Mon May 21, 2007 10:57 pm

kbolster12345 wrote:
kbolster12345 wrote:I did order from the "Hypothetical Store".

Well this is intersting feedback. I will keep this in mind when trading in the future. I bet I can get some much better trades.
I need to apologize for this statement. I just am in disbelief that people feel that it is the buyer's fualt with things aren't presented in a way that is the WHOLE truth.

BTW this person did know that these were OOP as his PM back to me told me that the new stuff is multi part models.

Don't worry kbolster, I'm also fairly shocked at the responses here.

This is an ESTABLISHED trader who misrepresented their items, even after a direct question from the buyer (certainly if he/she knew they were OOP and admitted as much via PM). Every one of the traders who have posted "buyer beware" know that this situation is not as simple as kbolster asking enough questions, but the seller properly disclosing pertinent information regarding their items.

Under the "buyer beware" rationale, if I were to post an ad for, say an "NIB squad of Deathwing Terminators" (we all know how hot DA are right now) and failed to disclose whether they were the OOP metal ones or the new plastics and, after contacting me, asking a few questions and receiving the items, I'm sure you'd ALL be upset if they were the OOP metal ones (and you were expecting the new version). And what if I wouldn't take them back? With that logic, you really shouldn't file a BTR because, you know, it's YOUR fault I failed to make clear which version they were.

That's silly. This is Bartertown. BOTH parties have an obligation to be fair and upfront about their trades. This other trader obviously wasn't and I think if anyone of us were in kbolster's place, we'd be just as (rightfully) ticked off.

Sandy Death's suggestion seems the most reasonable in this situation.

DarkSoul · Post by **DarkSoul** » Tue May 22, 2007 12:29 am

Just to get this out in the open... I am the Hypothetical trader he is talking about not that its hard to figure out sense i believe I'm the only trader with a 500+ feedback on the board.. real discretion there.

I offered him his money back but he wants me to pay both shipping to and from + his time and cost of money order.. I didn't ask him to send a money order... and i don't see how its my responsibility. If he were to purchase something from a on-line store he would be lucky to get it refunded at all... and then more than likely they would charge him 15%...

I'm not being a hard ass about this... but its not my responsibility to make sure a item is what he wants... i cant read his mind.. and 35.00 shipped for 24 hand gunners is a pretty good deal.. considering new or old they are 2.20 each and i charged him just over 1.25 each + shipping.. as far as postal costs.. that was my mistake i overestimated the cost, my bad... they would not let me ship the package with conformation because it was shipped in a padded envelope. if he wants the 2.50 back... by god I'll put it in a envelope and ship it back... (5.00 - 1.65 +.85 for the padded envelope) Gee i wander how many times i underestimated shipping and never went back and asked for more money.. hey anyone out there want to send me money back for the shipments i underestimated I'm sure they are quite a few!

my add read as follows...
viewtopic.php?t=44379&highlight=

if i misrepresented something please let me know how i did that... no where did i say they were latest edition or new or anything... he never asked and i never thought about it... asking about condition is not asking what edition it is. Did i even think about them being replaced a few months ago.. no.. not till he mentioned it and i went out to the website and rememberd that now their are new ones.. yes i knew in the back of my mind they were replaced but I just didnt think about it... Hell ive been listing these things for months... it just never crossed my mind.. if he would have asked are these the new ones.. i didnt lie to him.. i guess i need to start developing my mind reading skills so i know when someone asks for condition i know if they really mean what edition they are..

You guys all know me.. im not out to rip someone off.. this is ridiculous we both made mistakes.. i offed to refund his money but I'm not going to pay for shipping both ways.

So Kevin, if you want to leave a negative over this go ahead... I try never to leave a trade bad and i go above and beyond to make good on everything i do. and im sure plenty of people out there can confirm that or i wouldnt have the 500+ references.. but I'm done with this one.. You took this to far and I'm done. I tried to Handel this mature and professional but I'm done now.