Shipping & "handling" costs?

kturock · Post by **kturock** » Sun Sep 03, 2006 3:23 pm

if the box is full, the peanuts won't move. if the box is only partially filled with padding, then it will move.
paper, by it's nature is affected by humidity, or the lack thereof.
styrofoam isn't. it's only affect by high heat and high weight.

the box should be 1-2 inches larger than the item. if you ship multiple items, then there should be about 1 inch space filled with padding around each.

about a dozen years ago, usps offered a packing service for it's customers. several employees in each window service were trained on how to package everything and anything. even how to make and reshape boxes. the couple day course showed the how's and why's, and why not's. i was a graduate of that class. i packed everything from vases, lights, computers to dishware and a large metal object. i don't recall what it was, but it weighed similar to a bench vise. i had no items ever damaged or broken.

ups, under it's then shill company, mail boxes etc., sued usps 'on behalf' of smaller companies that couldn't 'compete' with usps's prices. we weren't allowed to charge less than the 'competitin'. but somehow our prices were lower. after the lawsuit, usps was mandatited to cease and desist all 'pack and send' operations, and to sell off the supplies at cost.

so i can speak, with not only almost 20 years experience in the post office but approximately 3 years professional packaging experience.

paper, is not and does not, properly pad breakable items.

arch_8ngel · Post by **arch_8ngel** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 3:18 pm

Suit yourself. It's great for moving, effective and extremely plentiful. I've never had a problem with it. I moved an entire house of fragile items with it. My dad has done the same thing multiple times with no problems. If you use it correctly, it works, period. If you're worried about moisture, line the box with a sheet of plastic.

I'm just backing up an earlier poster about a cheap and effective method of packing. Don't take it personally that something other than what you were trained to do as a packer would work.

kturock · Post by **kturock** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 7:11 pm

i'm not. but every box i've seen with broken contents had paper. i've only seen 3 boxes, with damaged contents, that had styrofoam peanuts as padding; but the box itself was crushed; vs the approximate 100 i've seen with paper/newspaper. the building i'm in now has a container with about 18 cu feet of boxes with damaged merchandise. all but 2 have paper padding. they have to be stored for 2 years after the claim was filed, denied, approved or pending.

if the item gets damaged, and you file an insurance claim; if it's packed with paper/newspaper, you claim will be denied, because it wasn't padded/packaged correctly. same if you have a fragile or liquid item and you don't declare it. every window clerk is supposed to ask if there is anything inside that is fragile, liquid, perishable or potentially hazardous. perishable isn't insured against spoilage, just loss.

the thing about moving is, you are the person transporting the item. carrying, loading and unloading it. load them with a fork lift, load them at 15 mph, or by using a slide, with no one on the bottem to unload it. that's about as close as you can come to what happens at the PO.

arch_8ngel · Post by **arch_8ngel** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 8:08 pm

I wouldn't doubt that a higher percentage of damaged items were in paper, but for the purposes of bartertown (mainly shipping plastic or metal miniatures) paper should work 100% of the time. Here you really just need something to keep the contents from rattling around and getting bent up. As far as I know, there isn't anyone here shipping glass or other ceramics, or anything brittle at all.

kturock · Post by **kturock** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 8:53 pm

plastics... it depends on the mini. metal..same thing. the metal usually breaks where it's glued. small, infantry size minis..maybe..tanks and other vehicles, larger, more detailed figures, no.

i've received a BA death squad that was broken because it was crammed into a too small box, and almost wrapped in paper. the seller is on ebay and is a power seller. over 2000 sales. experience seems to mater for naught.

bfg and inquisitor scale minis will bend and/or break in shipping if not packed properly. anything with spears, protruding arrows or other thin small projections. anything that can hit the side, bottom or top of a box when it hits a wall at 15+ mph, with 2000 pounds torque.

arch_8ngel · Post by **arch_8ngel** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 3:10 am

you might want to cool out on the exagerations, because there's no way that a 1lb box will experience 2000 lb-ft of torque with out being completely flattened, regardless of the contents. Also, how is this torque applied?

kturock · Post by **kturock** » Tue Sep 05, 2006 12:31 pm

it's not an exaeration. like i've stated, repeatedly, the mail is sorted on machines. the 'small parcel and bundle sorter' is about 60' long. the main drive gears are each 4' in diameter and weigh several hundred pounds each. it uses three-phase power to run it's motors. the drive chain move the sort tables at approx. 12 mph. it generates that much torque. so when the boxes go from the sort tables, to the slides or rollers, they gain some of the torque. then they drop into a 9 cubic foot cage. if the next piece is going to the same cage, and it happens to be 20 pound stack of magazines, which is common, it will fall or be thrown onto the previous box.

the box doesn't necessarily gain the torque, but it will feel the force of it. if there isn't enough padding to hold the items inside in place, the will be slammed up against the inside of the box. the same as driving fast and slamming on the brakes while not wearing seatbelts. unrestrained objects gain the force of the vehicle.

paper crushes and looses it's shape and spring. you now have space in the box for the items to bounce and move around it.

the 'spbs' is the slowest moving machine in the po. the large envelope/magazine sorting machine is even faster. the automated letter machines sort approx. 30,000 pieces per hour. 1 bad piece and it become confetti.

arch_8ngel · Post by **arch_8ngel** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 2:30 pm

How fast are the packages already sliding by the time they hit the 12mph conveyor? The force they experience as friction acts with the table and they reach the same speed as the belt is solely dependent on the amount of acceleration required to come up to speed.

You don't know this yet, so I'll tell you: don't feel the need to explain basic physics to me, because I'm an aerospace engineer and I specialized in structural dynamics.

kturock · Post by **kturock** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 5:37 pm

crap. i had a long response typed and then lost it when i went back to check you location.

this is probably boring everyone else. you live in/around atlanta. if you can, try to arrange a tour of the local [GMF} General Mail Facility, {P&DC} Processing & Distribution Center. they offer it to schools and civic groups like scouts.

watch how fast, and how much pressure is on a letter when it goes thru a machine in 'automation'. like i said it sorts at 30k+ pieces an hour. it can and has squished powder out of envelopes. hense how anthrax was spread in my building.

arch_8ngel · Post by **arch_8ngel** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 8:09 pm

sounds like fun. I've seen the video of the letter sorting machine before. It's like watching a gatling gun that shoots mail.

I was curious about the speed of the packages. The go down a chute and speed up prior to ending up on the conveyor, right?

You're right, though, I don't think anybody gives a damn but us. And I wasn't trying to bust your chops, I'm just trying to get a realistic picture about how abusive the process really is.

-Nathan

MEDEVL · Post by **MEDEVL** » Sun Sep 10, 2006 3:06 am

For what it's worth I've been following your antics with interest and humor all along. It's been fun to watch the back and forth banter. Also, kturock I would like to thank you for all of the insight you provide about the mail service in general, not only in this thread but many others. It really is helpful a lot of times. Now get back to entertaining me you two!!!

kturock · Post by **kturock** » Sun Sep 10, 2006 5:09 am

abusive, no.. miracleous that you ever get anything, yes.

the letter machines are akin to driving on the autobahn, in a tunnel. and some moron jack-knifes a pos pick-up truck hauling a trailer full of junk.

the office i work in cancels about 1 million letters per night. that doesn't count any mail that has pre-paid postage, any packages, magazines, or anything. just large and small envelopes, with stamps. well actually metered mail is counted into it. thats like your phone bills and the like that have postage on the envelope. but it only counts against the ones that start from my area.

there are 2 machines that use slides for sorting pacakges. the mechanised has a chain driven tables, that move down a 100' gear drives system. it moves at about 10-15mph. when the piece reaches it's sort slot, the table, which is actually another belt, moves perpendictualr and throws it off. it then either slides down a 5 foot set of rollers or down a 2 foot slide. this machine handles up to 20 pounds and the largest flat rate boxes...1.5x1.5?

the other machine is only converyor belts. it moves at a slow speed, but is all belts. it's belts handle the heavy and extra heavy and large items. like sacks of mail, car parts, exercise equipment. up to 70 pounds. it only stops when something blocks the photo eye at the end. picture the belt at supermarket cash registers..but 3ach is 3 feet wide and.. 50-80 feet long.

ancientsociety · Post by **ancientsociety** » Sun Sep 10, 2006 2:07 pm

Gentlemen, can we all just agree to disagree - no matter how wrong each of you thinks the other is?

kturock · Post by **kturock** » Sun Sep 10, 2006 2:37 pm

agree, disagree? he was asking how it works, and i was telling him the function.. or at least trying to.

move on ancient, you instagator.

ancientsociety · Post by **ancientsociety** » Sun Sep 10, 2006 3:20 pm

Instigator!? Who me? Never!