Trade Disagreement - Need input

[Tryntius]

Hey B-town and B-town admins,

So I'm making this thread to hopefully avoid an ugly situation. Below is a series of PMs that negotiates a CSM for Necrons trade. Before anyone gets the chance, I'd like to acknowledge that I did not have a PM doubly confirming the trade details; I thought it was clearly express (my partner thinks opposite). Basically, I'm asking the community (specifically the admins) if I owe this guy a Land Raider. Personally, I feel like dg3263827 is using bullying and manipulative tactics to obtain something I feel he clearly does not deserve. But, as they say, I have only my perspective and I'd rather lose a land raider than hurt my reputation on the site. Thanks for any help guys.



dg3263827 wrote on Tue Feb 18, 2014 4:24 pm:

What exactly does your CSM army consist of? And about how many points and/or retail cost is it? I have a sizeable Necron army and might be willing to trade some for a CSM army.

Subject: SM for Sale! also for trade H: CSM W: Necrons

Tryntius wrote:
I ship priority flat rate shipping with USPS and buyers pay shipping. I require payment up front, even if I have a lower trader score. If you aren't ok with that, please don't waste both of our time. Even though I've only done about 15 or so trades, this site is too damn valuable than for me to just throw my privileges here away for a few bucks. Also, paypal protects you. Oh, and I only ship in the CONUS. Pictures available upon serious inquiries. Everything is assembled.

ALSO, I am so tired of douchebags agreeing to a payment and then not responding for days to my messages. If you agree to pay for an item, you have 48 hours to pay or your offer is void.


6 Space Marine Bikes: $45
3 Scout Bikes: $25
Predator: $28
Venerable Dreadnought with Plasma Cannon:$23
Dreadnought with Las Cannon: $23
2 Assault Marine Squads: $15 each
5 man Scout squad, three with bolters, sgt with weapons and pistol, one with heavy bolter: $12


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For Trade:

HAVES:

CSM half of starter set
Finecast Chaos sorcerer
5 Chaos Terminators
5 Regular Terminators with extra bits from chaos termi box used to make them chaosy
1 Land Raider Godhammer patter primed black. Nothing chaosy done to this yet.

WANTS:

A Necron Army of equivalent or so points or a bit less points and their book.

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Tryntius wrote on Tue Feb 18, 2014 5:22 pm:
It's right in the post.

20 Cultists,
6 Chosen
1 Lord
1 Helbrute
1 sorcerer
5 Chaos termis
5 SM termis with the extra bits from the chaos termi box on them
1 Land Raider (which I think I might keep)

Retail for the everything but the LR is about $165. I have the necron book and some warriors. What do you have that you are willing to trade?

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dg3263827 wrote on Tue Feb 18, 2014 7:29 pm

Let me look and get back to you. Is there anything particular that you'd be interested in?

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Tryntius wrote on Tue Feb 18, 2014 7:42 pm

Lych Guard, immortals, and transports

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dg3263827 wrote on Wed Feb 19, 2014 8:07 am

I have some lychguard and immortals. Let me value them up and get back to you.

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dg3263827 wrote on Wed Feb 19, 2014 10:49 am

Okay. How about 10 Immortals, 5 Lychguard, 1 Spyder, and 1 C;Tan shard of the Nightbringer? Retail 169.25.

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Tryntius wrote on Wed Feb 19, 2014 10:56 am

Sounds like a deal. Here is my address:

Thomas Bauer
XXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXX

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dg3263827 wrote on Wed Feb 19, 2014 12:09 pm

Alright. I'll be putting them in the mail by the weekend. Here's my address:

D. Gorski
XXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXX

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dg3263827 wrote on Thu Feb 20, 2014 1:40 pm

On my way to the PO now. I'll send you the shipping/tracking info either tonight or tomorrow.

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dg3263827 wrote on Thu Feb 20, 2014 2:19 pm

Package is out. USPS Priority 2-Day. Should receive by Saturday. Tracking# 9114901159815114802255. I look forward to getting my 40 models.

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Tryntius wrote on Thu Feb 20, 2014 2:33 pm

39 Models you mean, can't wait for the 'crons.

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dg3263827 wrote on Thu Feb 20, 2014 2:36 pm

You listed:

20 Cultists,
6 Chosen
1 Lord
1 Helbrute
1 sorcerer
5 Chaos termis
5 SM termis with the extra bits from the chaos termi box on them
1 Land Raider

which equals 40. You said you might keep the Land Raider, but you never said that it wasn't included in the final list when we made the deal. You can't say that you're going to keep something you were thinking about not including AFTER the deal was made and items were shipped.

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Tryntius wrote on Thu Feb 20, 2014 2:38 pm

My friend you need to read all of my messages. Here is a quote:

"Retail for the everything but the LR is about $165. I have the necron book and some warriors. What do you have that you are willing to trade?"

If I was to trade you the LR the retail would be $240. I would you not trade you $240 for 169 of 'crons.

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dg3263827 wrote on Thu Feb 20, 2014 2:42 pm

How am I supposed to know that? People deal in favor constantly. I figured you just REALLY wanted the Necrons.

The deal on the table (that you agreed to) was my:

10 Immortals
5 Lychguard
1 Spyder
C;Tan shard of the Nightbringer

For your:

20 Cultists,
6 Chosen
1 Lord
1 Helbrute
1 sorcerer
5 Chaos termis
5 SM termis with the extra bits from the chaos termi box on them
1 Land Raider

If you will not send the Land Raider, that's fine. Send the other Chaos Models sans Land Raider, but I will be giving you negative feedback and opening up a Deadbeat/Backout warning.

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Tryntius wrote on Thu Feb 20, 2014 2:47 pm

Our trade details did in no way include the Land Raider. If you would like the land raider, do you have another $75 of 'crons that you would like to part with. Otherwise, the trade stands as a retail for retail trade.

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dg3263827 wrote on Thu Feb 20, 2014 2:52 pm

Our trade detail did include the land raider, YOU LISTED IT! But if you feel justified changing the deal after my items were already shipped, that's on you.

And as I said, when I receive the Chaos models without the Land Raider (since it was included in the list), I will be giving you negative feedback and opening up a Deadbeat/Backout warning.

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dg3263827 wrote on Thu Feb 20, 2014 5:35 pm

When will you be shipping out my models?

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[dg3263827]

I do not see how me expecting what Tryntius had listed make me a potential deadbeat. If anything, I think Tryntius NOT sending me what he had listed makes him a deadbeat and I am half tempted to post about this as well. I do not want my name sullied because Tryntius forgot to mention that he definitely was not including the Land Raider.

I feel as though this is unjustly posted and could have been handled via a PM to the admin(s). After this problem has been settled, I would like this post removed since I do not see how it qualifies as a reason to post as listed under the Rules of Posting.

[s_o_r_r_o_w]

I would consider the Land Raider to have been a "soft" exclusion from the list. The intention of approximate retail for approximate retail seems pretty clear. It is not, I think, a coincidence that you (dg3263827) generated a list of figs totalling $169.25.

At this point, it's best if you both just return what you started with. Tryntius should pay for return shipping, since your poor statement of the trade contents is primarily responsible for the confusion. Don't list things in trade ads that aren't for trade.

Further, a BO/Deadbeat post about dg3263827 fails on its face--since dg3263827 has ALREADY SHIPPED everything he promised.

If there's a BO, it's Tryntius--and you are in line for a BTR if you do not either deliver what was agreed on, or restore everything to where it began.

[Tryntius]

I'll be glad to send the package back as return to sender if it comes to that. He sent the items yesterday; I have not shipped because I have not received. I was trying to preclude anything by getting a ruling as to what I should do when I do receive dg3263827's necrons.

[Sinjin]

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with pretty much everything you posted sorrow.

IMO, the deal is obviously not including the Land Raider. And where you say "don't put things in trade ads the aren't for trade" I call bull pucky on that.

You've never sent someone a full list of what you had, and offered up part of it in trade? You're offering X and I tell you I have A B C D E and would trade you A B C for your X. Why did I list D and E if I wasn't including them in the trade? because maybe you don't want B, you want E instead. telling what I have that I"m willing to trade, is NOT the same as what I'm offering for this specific trade.

When Tryntius says he wants to keep the land raider, and lists the retail of everything without it, he has CLEARLY made an initial offer that DOES NOT INCLUDE it.

But the deal is easily resolved since Tryntius has not recieved anything yet. if dg3263827 is willing to do the deal without the land raider, then the deal is still on... if not then simply RTS the package and cancel the deal.

But let a lesson be learned here... no models should ever be sent until both parties have agreed to a summary post that clearly lists the trade without all the back and forth banter: I'M SENDING X: YOU'RE SENDING Y:

[dg3263827]

The reason I gave the number of $169.25 was because he gave me the total of $165. I saw a number and wanted to match it.

I just want the items that were agreed upon.
Upon Sorrow's suggestion, if I don't receive anything, I will be forced to post a BTR about Tryntius,. But I feel if I get my Necrons back or get the models without a Land Raider, I will have to file a BO/Deadbeat on Tryntius.

[Sinjin]

The reason I gave the number of $169.25 was because he gave me the total of $165. I saw a number and wanted to match it.

So you feel he owes you a land raider because you didn't fully read his post? Interesting...

[dg3263827]

No. I feel he owes me a Land Raider because he listed it (both in his original post & in our PMs) then gave me a price. About the Land Raider, he said "which I think I might keep" but at no time said that he WAS keeping it.

The Admin is the final word in this matter, and seeing as you are not one (Sinjin), I would appreciate you staying out of this and not causing undo problem.

[Sinjin]

First you use intimidation tactics to try to get something that was clearly not included in your trade... then you tell me to stay out of a thread that is NOT YOURS!

Interesting that you didn't say anything to sorrow who was more on your side then not. So it's OK to post in this thread (that again is NOT YOUR THREAD) as long as they side with you?

What a great positive addition you are to bartertown. I Can't wait to do a trade with you!

[MagickalMemories]

First, I TOTALLY agree that this does not qualify as a DB or BO on dg3263827. As such, I've moved it to the "Have Questions" forum and changed the thread title.
Second:

So you feel he owes you a land raider because you didn't fully read his post? Interesting...

This is close to being disrespectful. Please, keep further on the "respectful: side of the line. Thanks.

Third:

No. I feel he owes me a Land Raider because he listed it (both in his original post & in our PMs) then gave me a price. About the Land Raider, he said "which I think I might keep" but at no time said that he WAS keeping it.

The Admin is the final word in this matter, and seeing as you are not one (Sinjin), I would appreciate you staying out of this and not causing undo problem.

You're very wrong there. Sinjin -and anyone else- is more than welcome in and share his thoughts on the subject. Do not discount the trade experience of 30,000+ members. This site's been around for 18 or so years. There is a lot of wisdom in our membership base.

The reason I gave the number of $169.25 was because he gave me the total of $165. I saw a number and wanted to match it.

I just want the items that were agreed upon.
Upon Sorrow's suggestion, if I don't receive anything, I will be forced to post a BTR about Tryntius,. But I feel if I get my Necrons back or get the models without a Land Raider, I will have to file a BO/Deadbeat on Tryntius.

This looks pretty clear as you not paying attention to the whole message.
The rest of the message... well, you can post a BTR is you don't receive anything back, but you have an uphill battle on the rest of it.

Here's the deal; right from the get-go, he put in a statement that CLEARLY made a possible exclusion on the Land Raider. You had the opportunity to address it, but did not. Later, he gave you a price point and CLEARLY excluded the Land Raider again. At this point, too, you could have addressed it, but did not.

It wasn't until AFTER you sent your side that you, in any way, included the Land Raider in your "want" list. Even THAT inclusion isn't without question:

Package is out. USPS Priority 2-Day. Should receive by Saturday. Tracking# 9114901159815114802255. I look forward to getting my 40 models.

Okay. Who says that? In my 300+ trades here and on other sites, I have NEVER had anyone say something like that.
"I look forward to getting my models."
"I look forward to getting my stuff."
"Let me know when my models ship."
"To follow up, you're sending me [includes specific list]."
THESE are all the kinds of statements you typically see at this point in a trade.

I am not saying you DID do this, but it could look to some as if you were sneakily trying to get one past him. Like, if he didn't double check the count of the models and made some sort of statement of agreement, you could go back and use that against him in order to receive the Land Raider.
Again, I'm NOT saying that was your intent. What I WILL say, though, is that I've seen people try some pretty sneaky crap here and scream innocent when called on it. So, I'm ALWAYS on the look out for things like that.

Before I make the following statement, I want to clarify some internal things, re: the site.
I am an Admin. My judgement is trusted to make these kinds of decisions on a regular basis. That does not mean that, in any way, my word is automatically law. Like anything else, my decisions can be and have been subject to reconsideration.
Linrandir is the lead Admin. Any decision made by any staff member can be reversed by him. Additionally, we also tend to 'rule by committee' here. So, should an Admin make a decision, private discussions or a private consensus might cause him to reverse that decision.

That being said, my OFFICIAL opinion on this matter is to agree with Tryntius. His communication on what was being included was clear the entire time. Yours never specified that you believed you were getting the Land Raider until AFTER you shipped, giving the appearance that you were locked into the trade and surprised by the change.
If you two PRIVATELY want to decide to cancel the trade, then Tryntius can NOT OPEN the box and Return it to Sender. Consider your shipping fees as payment on a lesson learned on the importance of clear communications.
If you two PRIVATELY want to decide to (a) continue the trade with the Land Raider excluded or (b) with the Land Raider included, then that is between you to.
Please, BOTH OF YOU, read the following statement:
If you choose to continue with the trade, then I will not accept EITHER of you leaving a negative reference for the other based on the miscommunication. Period. Full Stop.
If you decide to trade, then you've agreed to move past that point and go forward. Should a negative be left for that, I will consider it ITL abuse and move forward accordingly (check the site rules on that one).

Oh, and Tryntius?
Please, stop referring to people as "douchebags" in your trade ads. It's not cool and we don't like it.

Thanks.

Eric

[MagickalMemories]

First you use intimidation tactics to try to get something that was clearly not included in your trade... then you tell me to stay out of a thread that is NOT YOURS!

Interesting that you didn't say anything to sorrow who was more on your side then not. So it's OK to post in this thread (that again is NOT YOUR THREAD) as long as they side with you?

What a great positive addition you are to bartertown. I Can't wait to do a trade with you!

Even if he doesn't want YOUR input, he knows better than to say sorrow shouldn't chime in. Sorrow is staff.

To reiterate a previous statement... R.E.S.P.E.C.T. Find out what it means to me.


Eric

[starslayer]

Sorry, Id have to say the LR was NOT included. In his retail price the LR was not included. He also said he might keep it. Im looking at this as a neutral party. I do think it is a bit unclear. The best thing to do is cancel the deal, ship back the stuff, and call it a day. It was a misunderstanding. Look long term- do you guys want a BTR or a negative reference? Its not worth it.

[Sinjin]

To reiterate a previous statement... R.E.S.P.E.C.T. Find out what it means to me.

You're totally right. I apologize. I saw what you kinda saw about 'sneaking one past' and took it personal, which was stupid because I have nothing to do with this trade.

[dg3263827]

I have sent Tryntius a PM based upon input and advice given here. Thank you, sorrow, MagickalMemories, and starslayer.

[usernamesareannoying]

this is the exact reason why i always post a final message saying "to sum up our deal, we are trading X for Y".
this would have avoided all of this.