A question on Etiquette.....

[Enigma Nostra]

BTW, As to my own references.... For the record that is....

I Supply people who I trade, Sell, or Buy from/With, My home phone number on request, my address, my email, my instant messenger account of whichever they prefer (ive got almost all of them these days), and my website/webstore for battletech items.

I have the same SN on ebay, and on Lords of the Battlefield (Where I have perfect feedback on many deals, one there being 2000 worth of mechs and other items). They are all linked to the same email account, which links to my website/webstore. I go out of my way to place myself visable to show people that I do trade in good faith. However, that does not mean that I will trust someone without a record on bartertown, just as I dont expect them to trust me because I have my own website. Trust is earned, thru actions, and followthru. If you choose not to trade with me, thats your perogative, and I wish you well in your deals elsewhere. I bear you no ill will, but am saddened that because I strive to protect myself, you would automaticly assume that I am out to rip you off.

-E

[Enigma Nostra]

Also, just a favor ladies and gentlemen, I did ask for all opinions, so lets please not get into a flame war. Its unnessecary, some will have differing opinions, and they are entitled to them. Nobody says that anyone here HAS to do buisness with anyone else, so lets try not to get our pants in a bunch, eh?

-E

[Warmonger]

Also, just a favor ladies and gentlemen, I did ask for all opinions, so lets please not get into a flame war. Its unnessecary, some will have differing opinions, and they are entitled to them. Nobody says that anyone here HAS to do buisness with anyone else, so lets try not to get our pants in a bunch, eh?

-E

Quite right. heh

I think my point has been made, so that's about it for me.

[orcdom]

i have seen this subject come up before, and i have has people with the gull to insist on ebay rating to be accepted here. those people usually get put on ignore. this is not ebay.

but as to the asking to ship first, depends on who the person actually is and who thier references are actually some.

there is a great group of people here, and if they have only a couple trade refs but some are fome some of the regs on here, i dont even ask for them to ship first. and i have been told i had to ship first with a 150 rating from me and a noob was wanting the trade.

some people dont care, its all about themselves. if you cant put some trust in the trade system here then leave. thats my 2 cents, because bartertown was built on some truse. and some has ruined it but for the most parte its a great place.

personally a rule of thumb for me on shipping is, depends on alot of things but here goes?

amount of stuff to be shipped, if under 10.00 dont usually matter who/when.

if they have at least 20 trades or around there, i dont even aske them to ship first.

any negatives, they will ship first, unless i know who they are from past dealings with me or others here that i consider regulars.

pends on the persons trade refs of who he has traded with.

if thier rating is over 100, i usually never think twice.

one thing, with my rating here, i expect at least a simultaneous ship. on my part, i am not shipping first, there may be a FEW with trade ratings higher than mine, but i have probly traded with them in the past as well.
i may get my package out first but thats justy how it happens

i have luckily never had any problems on here with trades but on 1 occasion. i sent my stuff, 3 months later i never recieved his. i posted on here looking for this guy.

a local friend of his contacted me because he didnt want to see his friends name soiled here, i knew the guy had just had a baby at the time and was also having pc/computer problems. the stuff he sent i guess never made it through customs or something, i never got them. he sint mine right back. i never gave him a bad ref, or even a neutral. just left the trade as is, i figured he had lost enough allready and things happen.

i just guess i have been lucky

and i have messed up on a couple trades as well (who hasent in some form), I packaged things with the wrong addresses, but i try to make it right and havnet gotten negative feed back from there. we are only human.

Steve

[MagickalMemories]

You know, Steve... you hit a few real good points, dead-on there.

High ratings are given a bit more distinction in the trade process. If I had someone who had a rating that was higher than mine... Say Steve..

KNow what....

Let's say Steve & I were in the process of a deal. We get to the shipping part and he says he wants me to ship first.

Well, honestly, I think that I would be SLIGHTLY (very slightly) insulted by that. I have a 3 digit rating, and he and I have interacted extensively.

I doubt that, in real life, he WOULD ask me to... but, for conversation's sake, let's say he did...

Steve wants me to ship first. At the point I've reached with my ref's, I'm going to point them out and acknowledge that, sure, his are higher... but mine aren't anything to sneeze at. I am going to request a simu-ship from him. I think it's the least I have earned.

If Steve still insists on ME sending first.... I'm doing it.

His rating is almost double mine, right now, he's been on this forum FOREVER, and he has earned the right to ship second with ANYONE of a substantially lower rating. While 100 (my current rating) may be very high, it is STILL substantially lower than his.

So, yes... Hihger ratings DO deserve a certain amount of respect.

Anyone remember I-Ching? I suspect he's still here in a different guise... but that doesn't matter.

The guy had a really bad attitude... but his rating was in the hundreds... More than 200, I recall... and this was s long time ago.
Anyway... His attitude was REALLY bad... but I'd have still shipped first in a trade. he earned it.

Now, the other point that really struck me was the part about messing up on trades.
I have done that myself on numerous occasions. If anyone I've messed up with is reading this, feel free to chime in about it. I'm not embarassed of it. We learn BEST from our mistakes.

...anyway...
I have made plenty of mistakes and I have never gotten a bad ref. from it. Why? I make it up to them. If I screw up my end of the trade, you will (almost always) get something extra in a trade.

One recent trade mistake, I threw a New Style Rhino rear hatch into the deal because of an error... a FORGEWORLD hatch!

What's my point? I dunno. Just to support out the validity of what Steve's saying here, I guess.

Eric

[David Phillips]

To ship first or not to ship first, that is the question.

I've had to ask persons to ship first with low ratings if the deal was a large one (say the person had a raiting of 10-30).

If the deal was a small one I'd do a simo ship. That's usually at my suggestion becasue I'm a trusing guy.

If the person has really good rating (say in the 100's) I'd do a simo ship no matter what the price range.

But I will never ship first to someone with a lower rating. I've been on hear a bit and have a decent rep (I would like to think). I take pride in the fact that I have not screwed anyone over and have always tried to go the extra mile to help out a person in a trade.

Recently I wanted to purchase some items from a fellow. He had a raiting in the 20's/30's. I said I would be happy to send a Money Order out for the items on the same day he sent the package. I felt this was fair. He said no can do. End of trade. I did send a note saying that I respected his feelings on this matter and wished him luck in his future endevors.

Now I will mention one pet peeve. This is happening here and on Ebay more and more. You send a trade and it arrives to the other person first. He/she does not leave a feed back raiting until after you leave one or they never do at all. I've always felt that the one who gets the goods first should leave feedback first. Well, I'm funny that way.

Hope that was not too much of a ramble

Good trading/gaming to all,

David

[arch_8ngel]

I'd have to disagree on your point about cash deals. While I don't think I would make money before I recieved items, I would definitely be willing to Paypal first, no matter the rating (negatives not withstanding). Something just seems wierd about expecting to pay for good after you receive them...business just doesn't work cash on delivery.

[David Phillips]

We are talking $30 or $40 in cash. Not hundreds. At the time I did not have funds in my PayPal account to cover the expense but was willing to send a Postal Money Order out the same day he sent.

To me this did not seem extreme or "wierd" since I did not ask him to ship first and I would send after I recieved the item.

Just my two cents,

David

[Brian Khazad]

Now I will mention one pet peeve. This is happening here and on Ebay more and more. You send a trade and it arrives to the other person first. He/she does not leave a feed back raiting until after you leave one or they never do at all. I've always felt that the one who gets the goods first should leave feedback first. Well, I'm funny that way.

Used to be I'd agree with you on this. However, I had one trade on Bartertown (I won't mention any names) that has caused me to change my mind. We agreed on a trade, both sides sending pictures and knowing what we were getting. The items he shipped to me arrived before he received the minis from me (but after I had shipped). Everything looked good and as-pictured, so I left good feedback. He emailed me a couple of days later saying he was going to leave me bad feedback because he didn't receive what I'd promised to send. I emailed him back reminding him that I'd sent pics of the EXACT items and the EXACT condition of each model and that he knew in advance he wasn't getting bare metal stuff. I also pointed out in my email that I had said they could BE stripped, not that they WERE stripped. The emails went back and forth a few times with him threatening back references if I didn't send him more Minis that were stripped. He finally dropped it after I sent him an email quoting date/time/specific lines showing where I had described what I was trading.

My point is, by leaving feedback first and not making sure everything was Kosher, I came dangerously close to getting shafted by someone who just wanted to get a freebie and was willing to screw over my record to do so. Yes, I could probably get it expunged by showing the proof to Adam or Lir or someone, but the point is that from now on I'm waiting until I'm sure BOTH sides are satisfied - either here or on Ebay (not that I use Ebay much) - to avoid getting shafted.

-Dwarf

[David Phillips]

Ouch!

Had not heard of that happening before. I can see your reasoning on that matter and will take it into consideration on future trades.

Just glad things worked out for you in the end,

David

[Enigma Nostra]

I also prefer to wait on leaving feedback, until both partys are done and done, and everythings agreed kosher, usually with a PM asking if they got the package if its been a while, and making sure everythings ok. Its too much of a hassle to try to get a Ref striked, imho, and the extra week (At MOST) really usually doesnt hurt anyone. On new traders sure, if they want to jump into it like I did, your sitting around waiting for refs for a bit, but I can also deff see people being more cautious with leaving feedback early on something with unproven deals.

-E

[MagickalMemories]

My personal theory is that I'll leave the reference when I darn well feel like it.

No. I'm just kidding... Though, I know, it can seem like that at times.

Occasionally, I get behind on my ref's (typically, when I get more than 3 trades at a time... I try not to do that). I believe, typically, on the leave-as-you-go policy.

Let's say I make a deal with you & you are to ship first... I receive your goods, I leave a reference. I ship my goods. You receive my part, you leave a reference.
If I don't get a reference, I remind the person after a week or so. If I still don't get it, I'll remind you another time or two. Eventually, I'll mark it up as a "lost reference" and move on. You bet, though, that any deals we have in the future will leave you without a ref until I get mine first... and I will make that known at the start of the second deal (I have never had to do this, but I would).

As for the threats of neg ref's... Ah, screw it. If they want to, then let 'em. I don't do ANYTHING in my deals that I feel I need to hide. If someone nails me wrongfully, then I'll report it to Lin, forward the information, and get the ref removed eventually. At this point, it is not worth stressing over for me.

Of course, I am at 100 right now and, even with a neg ref., my rating would be pretty darn good. Admittedly, I can't say I'd have felt like this 25. 30, or 35 trades ago.

Just my personal thoughts, but I totally understand those who feel otherwise.

Eric

[orcdom]

yea like the other guy said about the problems with feedback is if you scroll down near the bottom of my refs i have "1" neutral reference, it was the last times i posted a ref first, and ill be damned if i do it again esp with a noob, one of the regs here, no problem, but this guy after i posted my ref i got stuck with a neutral for primmed METAL figs.

he was told they were primed and what freggin moron gives a rating saying metal figs arent useable or nearly? even heavy coats of paint on plastics are strippable.

i got hosed on that rating. and that forces me to either through pm or email agree we are happy with the trade, or reverse shipping of the trade totally and leave no feedback either way, and i have never had to reverse a trade.
besides the one time to get my stuff back where i never recieved the other guys.

but as said before its more fo a case by case thing really

Steve

[MagickalMemories]

LOL

I went and looked at the ref.
Want an example of poetic justice?

Someone once left THAT guy an unnecessary neutral... because he put the actual value of the items on a ship to Canada, and the guy in Canada who got it had to pay $20 taxes.

LOL

Poetic justice at work.

Eri

[orcdom]

good it cost him in the long run i guess, but still it was not right for me recieving a neutral due to what he was told.

but also they guy that gave him the neutral ref, wasnt in the right either if that was the value of the deal. its no our fault the canadians have to pay taxes.

but i was asked in an email this evening to make sure to put gaming figures on the customs paper instead of figurines.
i gues that makes a difference between toys and collectables, i have no idea.

Steve