note about initiatve & HTH in 40k

[kturock]

Something we just noticed last night during 40k play.
Usually the initives are the same or so far apart it doesn't matter, but last night we had a new twist appear.

I had a deamon prince in HTH with some space puppies. My dp is I5 and they were all I4. No big deal. I attack 1st then they respond.

I charged amde the HoW hit and then started to plan to have puppies for dinner.

Well..the sw had a rune priest or hero or charcter, I forget which, who had I5 also, BUT he had a power fist and shield. I wasn't in BTB, but he was able to move up as I attacked.
The power fist says he attacks in I1, but he still gets to move up into base to base with my DP In I5 and allocate the wounds to whoever he wants.
So his shield gave him a 2+ save I believe. Guess who he put all of the wounds on?
Then the unit of attacted back and then the hero/IC/rp or wahtever attacked last.

That poses a whole new strategy.. especially for chaos.. anything with the mark of slannesh gets +1 I to I5. so a dp or a sorceror with a better save would be up and able to take the hits, even it has a power claw or axe that makes it attack last.

USe it also makes the space puppies even more cheezy.. also anyone else who can get shields, like GK or BT..or anything with storm shields.

[MagickalMemories]

I believe you were (accidentally) cheated.
I don't have my book handy to quote page and paragraph, but I seem to recall a statement from the book that says a model piles in on the initiative he'll be attacking. If he moves in on I5 to soak up those wounds, he loses his Fist attack and has to flail at you with girl slaps.
Granted, it might still be a valid play to lose the first round of PFist attacks, so as to keep the rest of the unit alive, then nail you with the PFist attacks on successive rounds of HtH.

Also, unless there's some Wolves wargear I'm not familiar with, the shield should have given him a 3+ invulnerable, not a 2+.

Eric

[Imaginos]

Or, a challenge could have been issued, giving him the same deal, but the unit could not attack back. (I think this is correct, but I only skimmed the rules once as my army is not playable yet.)

[kturock]

We looked it up in the book, not just my opponenet, but also 1 of the resident gurus, who has most of the book memorized.

page 22 under fight close combat says, " To represent this, a model's Initiative determines when he attacks in close combat."

On page 43 under special weapons under Unwieldy, " A model attacking with this weapon does so at Initiative step 1, unless it is a Monstrous Creature or Walker.'

On page 23, Start of Initiative Step Pile In, it says the models make a pile in at their Initiative. It also says on the top right hand column, " Models make their attacks when their Initiative step is reached, assuming thye haven't already been killed by a model with a higher Initiative!"

Unwieldy says it attacks at I1, not piles in. It doesn't say it changes the models I to 1, just that he attacks on 1.

So, we went with you move at your base I and attack at the modified I. There isn't a FAQ for the rulebook yet., so there's no where to ask or look.

[kturock]

Or, a challenge could have been issued, giving him the same deal, but the unit could not attack back. (I think this is correct, but I only skimmed the rules once as my army is not playable yet.)

He issued a challenge on his turn, but by then I had 1 unit in HTH with him and another on the way.

I still say it's crap that all SM get drop pod assaut, and on 1st turn they can put up to half their forces on top of you.

If CSM doesn't get DP's, I'll probably sell/trade my csm for eldar/deldar.

The entire fall into depravity and lack of tech knowledge by chaos is crap. Nids can figure out how to make DP from bugs, yet chaos can't with a deamon? or even steal them from SM's or retro create them? BS!

[Imaginos]

I thought IC could decide where their attacks went? So couldn't you allocate your attacks against the non-rune priest? Or was the runepriest the only guy in base to base?

[kturock]

DP isn't IC, it's a monsterous creature, and hq, but not IC.

We looked that up too.

[MagickalMemories]

Hmm. Seems like a crappy reading of the rules to me. If he piles in AND attacks at his initiative, then he should have to attack at the same initiative he piles in at.
There's got to be something in there about it... I mean, he doesn't get TWO pile in moves.

As for Drop Pods... all rumors state that they will NOT get Pods.

Eric

[kturock]

He's not getting 2 pile in moves. He piles in on his base I and then attacks at his modified I.

And the drop pod spam will continue.

[eman1_2]

We play a lot of 40K here, and I have never seen a drop pod used. I personally prefer a Rhino every time.

[kturock]

That's almost all I see. I can think of 1 player who doesn't use it. He has only 1 or 2.. all the rest have 3+ including some proxies.
Still it's BS that only marines & nids can use them.. no other race can figure them out in over 1000 years? or use something else to replace them?

[MagickalMemories]

My group uses pods a lot. With A11, Rhinos can be glanced to death too easily (actually, that goes for all vehicles, now, sadly). For me, it depends on what I want the vehicle for. Pods are good for up-close armies that can lay down a hail of fire when they arrive and survive the return onslaught before they are able to charge into assault (which is super nerfed, now).

Kt, I came up with a solution for you.
"Counts as."
Play your CSM models, but play them as Traitor Blood Angels, Dark Angels, Ultramarines, etc. It's not the same as playing Chaos... but it'll get you the DP's you want.
I've got a loyalist SM army that I created in such a way that I can easily use it as traitor SM, using CSM rules, to support my SM army.
Unfortunately, that looks like the only way you're going to get Pods. GW seems to want to keep a certain amount of difference between SM and CSM. By leaving out Pods, it takes a whole flavor of army and keeps it with SM. I don't mind it, really. I like that the armies are different. I can see why it would bug you, though.

Eric

[Norseman]

Don't forget if you Immobilize a drop pod it counts as two hull points.

[kturock]

1 of the guys has a csm loyalist army, that uses the BA codex. I forgot which one that is.

NO, I'll wait and lose against cheese. I have too many sonic weapons & blastmasters in my emperors children's force. I'll just make sure I set up havoc squads and not use rhinos.. just sit back and shoot.

The space puppy did that with is long fangs, behind the walls he bought. with his rhinos behind them. I didn't think rhinos could cross those walls. If that's the case.. I'll be flying flat out into their lines next time.

I'm about to give up on preds & oblits. they barely survive 1 turn, never 2. no matter where I put them.

[don_mondo]

DP isn't IC, it's a monsterous creature, and hq, but not IC.

We looked that up too.

Doesn't have to be an IC, just has to be a 'character' to gain Precision Strikes (page 63, main rulebook). Which a DP is (page 412, main rulebook). So yes, a DP can allocate in HTH using Precision Strikes. Even a 'Sergeant' can allocate using this.