Oh Joy - Discontinued models and another price increase!!!!

[MagickalMemories]

Bah.
Reeg, I just don't buy that line of thought.

You can buy better detailed model kits from non-gw producers for less money. If they can do it, GW can.

It is not costing them $5 a model more to create a SM Vindicator.
Codices are not costing up to $4 each more to produce. In fact, they're Chinese produced crap.
The BFG rulebook isn't costing $9.50 more to produce.

https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreads ... cDzQ#gid=0

There are just too many unreasonable costs. If it was about a sudden increase in the cost to produce, everything would be going up.


Eric

[s_o_r_r_o_w]

An item that was $50 in 2000 should cost $60 based on simple inflation. Are those once $90 boxed sets over $100 now? Yes. But they should be.

Based on inflation, this may be true. But year on year price increases have outpaced inflation significantly, with some boxes going up that much in one year--not 10.

And while I may accept indexing to oil, we didn't see any price decrease when oil fell, and it still is not as high as it was--and the figs cost more now, like for like.

There is absolutely no CAUSE for GW's continued price increases beyond the (perhaps quite legitimate) drive for PROFIT. Declining sales, shrinking margins--all of these produce price increases in order to acheive profit.

Profit is good--it drives capitalism. But GW apologists need to accept that PROFIT is the reason for the price increases and stop looking about at tin/oil/Smurfs as an excuse.

Other companies can and do produce metal and plastic figs of comparable detail cheaper, and GW's very size means that they should be able to do so as well (scaling).

But we poor internet hacks waste our typing. GW is in bad shape financially and getting worse year on year. Unless this new amalgam material introduces tremendous savings (ie it's cheaper to produce figs in than metal), you can continue to number GW's days as lliquidity is achieved at the expense of cost cutting rather than as a product of growth--or sales.

[HarlequinZero]

The problem with GW is their insistence that everything can be fixed by raising prices. That is NOT GW's main problem. Their main problem is attracting and retaining new blood. However, since raising prices is an infinitely easier method through which to show profit in the short term that's what they keep doing. GW seems willfully ignorant of the fact that they're killing themselves in the long term instead of looking at ways to bring in new gamers and/or hobbyists.

Oh, and for all of you who shop at certain overseas discount retailers in the UK, they are now banned from selling GW product to anyone outside the EU starting on May 31st. That means in places like Brazil, Australia, NZ and Japan we have to start paying the insane MSRP that GW charges or start getting people in other countries to send stuff on to us. So far it seems US retailers are still allowed to ship over seas, but there aren't any US retailers who offer the ridiculously cheap, (or outright free,) shipping some of the UK places do. My GW purchases are getting scaled back hard.

Although a good thing for Bartertown is I'm guessing we'll see a large uptick in traders outside the US looking to buy used stuff on here to get their fix.

[TheRhino]

I'm curious as to what the new resin/plastic hybrid material is, and how its properties impact the cost of production.

If a production run of metal Marneus Calgars gets borked, you just dump the malformed run back into the pot, and repour. You only lose time.
If a production run of plastic Hormagaunts has holes in it, you regrind the bad run, and lose time and a percentage of your raw material (dust/chips are impossible to recover 100%).
These materials mean your bottom line isn't massively screwed by production snafus.

Now, resin is non-reusable. Anything you screw up goes in the trash can, because it can't be repoured or reground. Screw up a run of resin/plastic hybrid Nurgle Daemon Princes, and you're out some cash.

It doesn't cover all of the price increase, but maybe some.

[s_o_r_r_o_w]

It doesn't cover all of the price increase, but maybe some.

It covers none.

If the new material isn't cheaper to operate to obtain/operate with than pewter--then why switch to it? It's not like the world has run out of tin.

At the very least, with a new material, we should be seeing prices stay the same. At best, we would hope that GW's much wider margins would mean that prices would decrease.

A price increase after a materials switch is 100% BS.

[jturner]

Well it's a good thing I haven't bought GW models from GW in....I don't know how long.
I am sure they will be great looking minatures, but GW is just sick if they think they can keep jacking prices. 60 dollars for 5 plastic terminators?

[reegsk]

MM -- I should have been more clear. I'm not trying to argue that inflation is going to cause the entire price increase. But it's something that has to be factored in. It's undeniable that things cost more now than they did ten years ago. These prices weren't really changed until the last few years. Hell, some things are still selling at the price point they were a decade ago (look at metal units like Ironbreakers and Hammerers. . .at least until they get re-released in resin). What I'm saying is that, if you look at these price bumps and consider the fact that prices on older kits have remained mostly steady until the last few years, inflation has a heavy hand in it. The $90 kits moving to $110 is pretty much entirely inflation. Punch $90 and 2000 into an inflation calculator, and check out what the price comparison is. A Land Raider, which was $50 ten years ago, should, just from inflation, increase to $65. A lot of those books and whatnot have been at the same price since they were released years ago. One of the major issues is that they did not slowly increase the price every year or every two years to match inflation and increased production costs, but instead jack up the price $5 or more on these select items one year, and then on another group of select items the year after that. I think they could have scaled that up a lot better.

Sorrow -- Part of my response is in the above paragraph, about the fact that GW didn't increase prices incrementally, but all at once in groups the last few years. Yes, some kits have taken the price hike hit every year, but most have not. As far as oil increasing and then dropping, how often do you see a company raise a price because of increased production costs, and then lower it? Buying oil and gas is one matter, but I don't think I've ever seen any manufactured good increase in price, and then, when raw materials become cheaper, drop back down in price. Once they've got you hooked on that higher price, and you're willing to pay it, why would they decrease it? And Games Workshop is a business. They're a business that sells an unnecessary, luxury product. Raising prices above inflation and production costs is what businesses do to make profit. How can you fault them for that? GW haters need to realize the fact that GW isn't a non-profit company. They made a product that people like and want to buy, and businesses need to increase prices to maintain or increase their profit margin. That's what businesses do. Sure, they're going about it in a horrible way (sudden, dramatic increases as opposed to gradual ones), but hey, no one's perfect.

HZ -- Yeah. . .that's a weird move. I mean, it's obviously well-documented and well known that GW likes having direct control over. . .well, everything. But the prices, especially in Australia, are horrific. A blogger recently pointed out the fact that retail prices for three Elysian Heavy Bolter teams from FW is cheaper than a Cadian Heavy Weapons Squad from GW. Of course, he wasn't factoring in shipping from England, but the price differential there is kind of ridiculous. Not that GW is ever open about anything, but has anyone ever explained the price disparity?

Lastly, just because I'm trying to rationally explain an issue doesn't make me a "GW apologist." They're big boys, and can defend themselves. But every time this happens, it's the end of the world. It's not. It's business. This crap happens. If they jack up prices and change policies to the point where you're done, fine, it happens. But you can't expect a company to increase the quality of their product in a poor economy and keep their prices the same. While producing newer, better plastic kits may not increase the price of their old kits, they still need to cover their costs to increase their profits.

[Ironhide]

Would like to point out that Privateer Press model prices were very low when they first came out, now look at them. It was $30 bucks for a Battlegroup, now it is at $50. We all know every business is out to make profits, but reegsk has a point about the rising oil prices being part of the reason prices increase. Simple economics will tell you that when oil prices rise, the prices of other goods also rises. This is due in part to fuel price increases, which cause shipping costs to rise; GW is doubly affected since plastic is a byproduct of oil.

So, you can stop buying them, but all that will do is cause prices to rise even more; or make them go out of business. Your choice.

[jturner]

I vote for go out of business.

then someone can pick up all their assets and actually make it work.

[reegsk]

My biggest gripe with GW isn't the prices, those I can see logic to. My gripe is how the company has changed. I joined up in '03, and right away heard tell of things like Armageddon and Eye of Terror, and witnessed Storm of Chaos firsthand. The only thing similar that they've attempted in the last five years was Nemesis Crown and that 40k campaign Something V and Lucky 13's that no one knew about, which were nowhere near the same level. Those earlier campaigns were incredible, detailed, well thought out and tons of fun. How expensive can it really be to do something like that again? Instead we get supplement releases that they push for a few months and then drop, except for Apocalypse. I enjoyed Cities of Death and Planetstrike, but there was no support after the fact. And don't get me started on what they did to Mordheim and BFG, which were both great games (and yes, I said "were" on purpose).

Admittedly Privateer is smaller, but look at their Shattered Grounds league. There's not a TON of extra stuff, like the campaign books GW used to rock, but it gives you a reason to play a game and adds a bit of fun competition, but you get points and the patches just for participating and not for winning. GW is now limited to tournaments (do they actually run any of these themselves any more?) and that's it. So it's play casual or have a campaign/league on your own time, or jump into the hellish firestorm know as the national tournament scene and spend lots of money on the newest hot list if you want to win.

Seriously, GW, bring back the fun campaigns and supplements and scenarios. White Dwarf is now a "Look how cool these new models are! Buy them!"

[MagickalMemories]

Preach it, brother.
I've got to agree with everything (GW related) you said there. In fact, I only see one point of disagreement:

the prices, those I can see logic to

I cannot.


Eric

[reegsk]

Heh, agree to disagree on that one, MM.

Apparently, GW is listening to their customers again:

http://www.facebook.com/notes/games-wor ... 1343957370

I can't go to that link because of work, but it sounds like they're taking customer comments. We should unite and demand the return of excellent campaigns!

[YoungWolf777]

Heh, agree to disagree on that one, MM.

Apparently, GW is listening to their customers again:

http://www.facebook.com/notes/games-wor ... 1343957370

I can't go to that link because of work, but it sounds like they're taking customer comments. We should unite and demand the return of excellent campaigns!

LOL. They've banned Uberdark from their FB group for asking why?

http://theback40k.blogspot.com/2011/05/ ... o-ask.html

[jul]

here's a copy of the post i've made over Facebook, i know it won't change the world, but i'm starting to think it would be great to rework it into a full leter and send over HQ, even if there it would end up in a garbage can, probably. will take any constructive comments.

While I do not comment generally on things like this, the latest announcement by GW is huge enough for me to raise my voice. For the story I have been playing GW games since 1989, I experienced the different switches, price hikes and other ...marketing operations made by the company over the last 2 decades and what I can say is for the first time, GW decisions are blunt, without respect for their customer base and/or their business partners, almost rude overall. I remember a time where price hikes were understood as happening only every 3-4 years or so, where those raises looked fair as well distributed over the products and more importantly homogeneous.

As a company, GW has to raise their price to keep up with the rise of their cost, that’s a fact and not only for GW but for everyone. Denying GW the right to raise their price is like refusing a salary increase for all GW employees – and if you have already worked for GW or in the gaming industry, you know how low are the wages. Secondly, switching for cheaper material to produce better quality models is a good move, even better for them if they can keep the old molds and it is easily understandable for models that are not on the high volume sale opportunity (how many Pedro Kantor the customer will be compare to how many tactical squad box sets and so on).

Where it went wrong is that GW used this switch to justify a price raise, where I think it’ll have been better to let the first wave out and raise the prices later on during the year. That is creating a lot of anger amongst the community and will create a loss of customer – customer base that is shrinking with their known inability to retain young customer past the first year and scaring the veterans away towards different systems and companies – as a personal example, most of the people I used to play 40k with in a competitive environment either dropped GW or switched their primary game system for something with better rules, better support, better price.

This price hikes also showed several issue on the GW pricing in general, precisely the UK/Aus pricing differences. What is surprising is that GW already had to deal with this kind of issue, remember when Canadians prices were 1.4-1.6 more than US prices while the exchange rates were 1.1. Some retailers stopped ordering from GW Canada for secondary distributors in the US, killing almost instantly the late GW Canada division. After a couple of years, GW finally adjusted Canadian prices on US markets but it was too late for GW Canada to survive. This embargo appeared as the solution brought by GW to avoid the death of GW Australia, seems it’s not going to save them anyway as you cannot force your customers to pay for a product twice the price it retails elsewhere.

Also the switch for resin appears to me as really good idea, the price of them however will increase the number of counterfeits as it is really easy and cheap to produce en-masse recasts of resin models. Just having a look at ebay and FW models, it is pretty obvious and GW Legal doesn’t seem to act.

Overall, I do not ask GW to stop raising prices, just doing it in a respectful way for their customers and Trade partners, because saying GW is producing the best models in the world is not enough and not true neither – they produce the best models suited for their universe, but anyone who opened one day a Tamiya Kit or a Gundam Master Grade could appreciate the above average GW plastic production and the poor price/content ratio, even though they did a tremendous improvement on quality over the last 4 years. I only ask that GW supports a little bit more their products by first not considering their customers as ‘addicts’, putting together a coherent price policy worldwide and continue to improve the quality of model production – rules as well if possible.

My 2 cents…

i can add a lot more on the subject but my time was short this afternoon. On one hand, i'm quite surprised at the number of nerd rage over FB page, a couple of posts stand out but overall it was more threats, insults and the like.
I'm still thinking that if a sufficient number of customers ailied with Trade buisiness raise their voice, GW would have to listen, they did it once, they can do it again.
note on plastic quality of GW products, it's barely above average on what the industry is capable of, but on the other end GW is not Bandai nor Tamiya (i.e. Bandai had a Net gross of 39 Billions Yens last year (roughly 460 millions US) only with the Gundam plastic models brand, excluding all other plastic kits they make.
Looked like GW is trying hard to reach a critical mass high enough to switch from gaming industry to hobby industry, they would probably be eaten alive in the Big League if they do not act like they do not care...

Cheers

J.

[MagickalMemories]

Heh, agree to disagree on that one, MM.

Apparently, GW is listening to their customers again:

http://www.facebook.com/notes/games-wor ... 1343957370

I can't go to that link because of work, but it sounds like they're taking customer comments. We should unite and demand the return of excellent campaigns!

Nah.
It's just a bunch of gum flapping.

Hi everyone,

Well, we can see that there are quite a few of you with strong feelings about several issues, and the threads have gone a little crazy. We’re sorry many of you feel frustrated. We have read all of your comments and because we (the web dudes) don’t have the power to act on any of them, be assured that we have passed your comments on to the higher levels of management in GW.

We want to continue posting pictures of your fantastic miniatures, and link to hobby related items. We would like future threads to remain relevant to the topic in question, so everyone else can have their voice heard and enjoy the discussions about the hobby we all love.

We’ve got your comments both in this thread and on those older posts, which will remain open for you to carry on the conversation there – please, feel absolutely free to do so, we will indeed read them. But in any new threads, we want to celebrate the creative efforts of others. Any comments that stray off topic will be removed.

Just remember that we must remove any strong language and abusive users, in consideration of our youngest fans.

The web team.

Eric