HELP! Question about shipped items that have not arrived

[Warlord2009]

Hello again:

I have always been of the mind that once a person pays for the items that the items belong to them, I will send them anyway they want, however my responsibility ends at places where I can control. My fault is that I did not make that clear I guess (I assumed that was understood because I cannot control shipping companies).

I do realize that in the future I will make that very clear; I will not ever de-value a parcel again. And if a person does hold me responsible to get the item to them it will be REQUIRED to have the item(s) insured (at the expense of the buyer) so that we are both covered.

I have been doing this for a LONG time and have had parcels not show up in the last 20 or so years, however the buyer showed me proof of shipping and I did not ask for insurance so I just let it go.

It really bothers me that the buyer in this case knows that I was doing my best to accommodate him and he went right to Paypal and filed a claim before letting me know he was going to drop the AX, it has caused a lot of problems for me.

I am finding now that it is normal to have parcels arrive 30-90 days after shipping and if he has had dealings with others in the U.S. he should full well know that.

You live and you learn I guess.

Thank you again for your comments.

Well, seems very unfair that the responsibility falls on me or any other person for sending goods out when clearly you cannot control the shipper.

You did have some control here though--you could have declared (and insured) actual value of the goods. You could have used an express guaranteed shipping. As one party to the transaction, you are in a position to insist on some measures that protect you.

I believe that the buyer needs to accept some responsibility here, it is clear that the parcel has been sent (the tracking number in the U.S. does show tracking). I did what I was supposed to do. Why not be able to say because of what you asked me to do we cannot file an insurance claim for the full value (I would not have valued the parcel less if he did not ask me to do so – I had nothing to gain from doing that). This guy wins no matter what rather it shows up or not.

I do agree with you that he should have waited --contacted you for sure--before going through PayPal. However, my experience with the PayPal process is that it is not instantaneous; the dispute process takes a few days and so you should have been able to mount some sort of a defense.

If this guys is still not talking to you and not being cooperative, I would Neg him without a second thought, doubly so if your package does arrive in the end.

[MagickalMemories]

I have always been of the mind that once a person pays for the items that the items belong to them, I will send them anyway they want, however my responsibility ends at places where I can control. My fault is that I did not make that clear I guess (I assumed that was understood because I cannot control shipping companies).

That's one big, important thing with Internet trading. Assume nothing. Make sure every minute detail is spelled out. Variables tend to equate to problems

I do realize that in the future I will make that very clear; I will not ever de-value a parcel again. And if a person does hold me responsible to get the item to them it will be REQUIRED to have the item(s) insured (at the expense of the buyer) so that we are both covered.

That would be a very wise practice. I try to always offer the individual the option to buy insurance (when I'm selling) and explain that, if they don't buy it, it's on them.

I have been doing this for a LONG time and have had parcels not show up in the last 20 or so years, however the buyer showed me proof of shipping and I did not ask for insurance so I just let it go.

Proof of shipping does not equate to proof of delivery, unfortunately. I think you were generous with them.

It really bothers me that the buyer in this case knows that I was doing my best to accommodate him and he went right to Paypal and filed a claim before letting me know he was going to drop the AX, it has caused a lot of problems for me.

Agreed. He should have tried to work with you, first.

I am finding now that it is normal to have parcels arrive 30-90 days after shipping and if he has had dealings with others in the U.S. he should full well know that.

Agreed, as well.

Eric

[s_o_r_r_o_w]

It really bothers me that the buyer in this case knows that I was doing my best to accommodate him and he went right to Paypal and filed a claim before letting me know he was going to drop the AX, it has caused a lot of problems for me.

I am finding now that it is normal to have parcels arrive 30-90 days after shipping and if he has had dealings with others in the U.S. he should full well know that.

I'm in total agreement, and this is what would earn that buyer a neg from me.

I have a hard time sometimes getting sellers to send to me here in Canada, and it is in part a result of stories like this one. A little open communication could have facilitated this exchange and, if this is an established seller, he should know how long it can take for stuff to come to Brazil from the US. Burning you with PayPal before it was likely that the package could arrive is unfair.

[Warlord2009]

Why is it unfair? I don't understand.
Granted, it's expensive, but there are ways to ship packages anywhere in the world that the USPS ships (almost), where you can require a signature upon delivery. So, it's not like you *couldn't* have chosen another option. You chose one that, I presume, had the most reasonable shipping costs. Understandably so, in fact.

Sure, he was concerned about charges. Here in the US, we're rather spoiled in that we almost never get stuck with customs fees. Things aren't that easy in most of the rest of the world, where their packages are practically held for ransom. In the end, though, the decision was yours.

There are those who claim that ignorance is not a defense. Sometimes, I agree. Take Bartertown rules, for example. I do not accept ignorance as an excuse. In this case, though, it's quite reasonable to accept it (IMO). I mean, you've got a 44 rating right now. That's 44 completed trades under your belt. You're no newbie to trading any more, but that doesn't mean that you've got a bunch of experience with Inat'l trading. So, I get it. I fail to see, however, how your trade partner should accept responsibility for your actions.

Once again my actions were dictated by his request to have the parcel (his items) devalued, so you will forgive me if I say again that he certainly does bare responsibility for the parcel being de-valued, once he paid for the items they belonged to him - not me any more. My responsibility at that moment is to get the items to him and I thought I was doing him a service by doing it that way he wanted me to (however I will say now knowing the illegal nature and insurance implications it will not happen again).

At this point that is not even the issue. He went right to Paypal and filed a dispute after I provided him with proof of shipping the items, I have always communicated with him and did my best to accommodate him, it shows me that al he cares about is himself as far as I am concerned. “Warlord devalue the items to this, Warlord send it like this” however never mentioned that if they don’t arrive I am going to blame you for it – AUG! If I knew this I would have made sure I was covered beyond a shadow of a doubt.

I looked at the Brazilian postal link and it asks you to “Enter the 13 digits reference number appearing on your receipt into the "Items identifier" box and click on the "SEARCH" button.” It also says “Economy and priority international shipping, as well as Sur Postal Expresso items (reference numbers starting with “XR or R” and ending with “BR”) are only tracked up until the point that they leave Brazil.” It also says it has to end with a “EB” and a “BR” so I don’t know if it will work with my U.S. number or not, further it says that you can track it until it leaves Brazil and the parcel I sent is going to and not coming form – so your guess is as good as mine..

If you plug in your #, it will attempt to track it for you. This is one place where foreign posal sites often supass our own.

I did but it came up with nothing so I don’t know if it is working and I don’t have a working tracking number to compare it to to see if it is working or just my US number, I was pointing out that what they are asking me to input and what is going to show was not what I was putting in so that may be why it is not showing anything – I simply don’t know.

I believe that the buyer needs to accept some responsibility here, it is clear that the parcel has been sent (the tracking number in the U.S. does show tracking). I did what I was supposed to do. Why not be able to say because of what you asked me to do we cannot file an insurance claim for the full value (I would not have valued the parcel less if he did not ask me to do so – I had nothing to gain from doing that). This guy wins no matter what rather it shows up or not. .

I still don't understand WHY he should accept responsibility. He's done nothing (that we can prove) which would cause the delayed or lost package. Not being able to file a claim is, frankly, your own responsibility. You made the decision to devalue it.
I agree that your package has been sent. Plugging your # into the USPS site shows that it's been sent. I can't guarantee that it's even left the country, though.

I believe I already made that clear, I have proof that he specifically asked me to de-value the parcel, he even made the request in the Paypal payment, but it seems that is not good enough for you so fair enough – we can agree to disagree. I can tell you this, if it were me on the other end and the seller told me where my request had placed him I would most certainly accept full responsibility for it knowing that I am the one who made the request on my items and now we cant claim the full value.

[quote+Warlord2009”]Your item was processed through and left our COPPELL, TX 75099 facility on January 29, 2011 at 9:04 pm. The item is currently in transit to the destination. No further information is available for this item.[/quote]

IIRC the USPS site specifically states when the package has left the country and says some blurb about no further information being available for it (or something). Maybe kturock's around to confirm that (a) I'm right or (b) I'm talking out of my a-hole.

Given the current situation why even bother shipping to Brazil anyways? 30-90 days shipping times, if it does not show up you loose the funds and the items. I bet filing a claim is no picnic also.

Just my thought.

Now, there's an interestig question. One with a number of answers, which has been batted around these fields quite a bit (foreign trades in general - not Brazil in specifically).
Myself, I would only ship there under VERY and SPECIFICALLY limiting trade terms, which would include me not being responsible for items not lost, if I can show proof that they were sent. There are places, like Italy & the Phillipines, where I will not ship at all. That's just me, though.
This kind of a thing is the exact reason why some people refuse to trade, except within their home country.

Eric

Well I tell you what, it has made me think a whole lot, I have shipped for many , many years to many many places but I have never experienced this before (mostly to Europe and AU and such) I now see why a lot of folks will not ship to some of these countries. My models would have sold to someone in a much more shipper friendlier country and I for one think I will just wait on the from now on. Mr MagickalMemories thank you for your rather candid responses they are appreciated.

Warlord

[kturock]

MM, I can't confirm or deny what's now on the website..
There used to be something on it to that effect, but I haven't looked recently. [it SHOULD be there.]

IH..sorry no, USPS can't trace squat. If you can't find it online, neither can we. [except for insured items which are only trackable on the USPS intranet.]

If it doesn't have a number that is MANDATORILY scanned, it can easily slip through the system. [thnigs that MUST be scanned are: Express Mail & Registered Mail. All else is delivery point only and randomly elsewhere.] {also on that note. in my office, last week or the week before, a bag of Express Mail was found, buried in & under empty sacks. if the sender's filed claims, they got their postage back. about $20 each.}

The old system of having someone available to look 'between the cracks' is gone. There is no more 'spare help'. Most everything is automated or mechanized. Machines are being run with skeleton crews. [last week 13 people called out sick on the overnight, sorting crew. 6 machines didn't run, out of 42. mail went out to the delivery stations up to 2-3 hours late. they are usually staffed with only 1 person per machine, with a 2nd coming to 'help' later on. the machines are supposed to have 2-3 people per.]

[Warlord2009]

Thank you IH:

I think I am going to file the insurance claime also, it will atleast put on some heat because it is a postal liability. I just hate it went this far. I will be satying from certain countires in the future!

Warlord

Well, you can go back and have the package traced. If the USPS can actually prove that the package entered the Brazilian Postal system, then you can contact Brazil Post and tell them that person A is saying he has not received a package you sent and give them all the info on the package you have. If they come back to you saying the package is held up in customs because Person A will not pay the import fee, then I'd say you would have a BTR. Not only that, you could use the same info for your Paypal dispute on the matter. Also, you can inquire of Brazil Post of what will happen to the package if Person A fails to claim it, and request that it be returned to sender; you may have to pay a fee though.

Note: I use "Brazil Post" to refer to the Brazilian postal system since I don't know how to read Portuguese.

[Warlord2009]

Hey again!

It looks like while was posting replies to everyone, replies were comming down the pipe to some of the replies I was making.

I just want to say quickly thank you to all of you who have shared your view points on this matter - it is GREATLY appreciated!

Warlord

[MagickalMemories]

Well, I'm glad to see you aren't taking my disagreement personally. I like that. : )

I think we'll have to "agree to disagree" on the point of responsibility. While I understand why you feel that way you do, I just disagree. I don't see him as being responsible for a decision you made at his request since, in the end, you could have chosen not it do it. Like I said, I understand your reasons. I just disagree.

I'll focus my efforts from here on out on the rest of the details.
(Oh... and don't call me "Mr." LOL)

Could not agree more re: his actions with the dispute. So, no reason to really touch on that, either. I think most of us are on the same page there.

As for what the Brazil Post site says, follow the link Ironhide posted earlier:
http://www.correios.com.br/servicos/ras ... amento.cfm
Once there, click the ""Englisn Version" link near the top and input your Customs #. I did this when you PMed it to me, and I cam up with a generic "package not in system" type message. If it had arrived, it would show up. I've seen that specific message before on their site (except that I had to use an internet translator site & copy/paste to understand it, since I didn't have the English version link LOL).
Give it a try.

I won't advise anyone not to trade to any specific location. I will tell them, however, that they should never ship to anywhere that they're uncomfortable doing to. If that means Brazil for you from here on, I can totally understand it.

Eric

[Ironhide]

If the item was stuck in customs, I do not believe it would show up on the Correios website. As postal services and customs agencies are separate.

[MagickalMemories]

If the item was stuck in customs, I do not believe it would show up on the Correios website. As postal services and customs agencies are separate.

Presuming everything is scanned as it's *supposed* to be, it comes in via the postal service first, gets scanned in, then goes through customs.

Eric

[Ironhide]

I'm not saying you're wrong or that I am right, but it has always been my understanding that as soon as the goods arrive in country they go into a customs bonded warehouse. Once it clears customs it then goes to the postal service.

[MagickalMemories]

In Brazil, at least, it's got to be the postal service that transports it there. I've seen before where someone in the US sent a package to Brazil, and the Brazil Postal website had updated the customs form # to indicate that the package is in customs.

Eric

[Warlord2009]

Well, I'm glad to see you aren't taking my disagreement personally. I like that. : )

I think we'll have to "agree to disagree" on the point of responsibility. While I understand why you feel that way you do, I just disagree. I don't see him as being responsible for a decision you made at his request since, in the end, you could have chosen not it do it. Like I said, I understand your reasons. I just disagree.

I'll focus my efforts from here on out on the rest of the details.
(Oh... and don't call me "Mr." LOL)

Could not agree more re: his actions with the dispute. So, no reason to really touch on that, either. I think most of us are on the same page there.

I understand, bare in mind thought that in my book he had paid for them, they are his items so I had no problem doing what he wanted me to do with his items - so agreeing to disagree is the place to be in this. And also I don’t mind trying to help a fellow enthusiast - so I thought – shame on me.

I use the Paypal account for everything online. Because of what he has done I cannot ship online because both shippers I use are online, I cannot make any purchases, nor can I pay for other things that I use that account for. I have always tried to keep it on the up and check it everyday, I was shocked to see that dispute come down – I really was. At this moment I am out of the Miniatures, the shipping cost, the money, the time that has been spent dealing with this and that will be spent on this. I can safely say this was beyond a shadow of a doubt NOT WORTH IT! Even gave him a discount which cut into my $$$.

As the person said above, I will be very different in my international dealings from this point on and all because of "this guy"! Seems that is the way it goes now a days though - one person makes it bad for everyone else.

The tracking is vague at best also, I have had shipments which show every step of the way and then I have had shipments which show part of the way or not at all until the delivery is made then ALL the information drops down at once, so who knows where that parcel is at this moment.

The positive this is that I have got some very useful information out of this.

Thank you guys again, I will keep this posted. I do think there should be official policy concerning this to help others have a better experience here and although we may not be able to change the shipping companies or Paypal we can as a community have rules in place for example:

1. You can choose to for go Insurance on a parcel shipped to you, however by doing so you also for go the ability to go after the seller if it becomes lost in shipment (provided the seller has proof of shipping the parcel).
1a. You can insist that the buyer pay for insurance, if the buyer does not wish to have insurance that you have the right to call the deal a bust and re-list your items (even though there are rules here, Paypal may still rule in favor of the buyer in a dispute and you just don’t want to take that chance)
2. DONOT de-value international shipments, it is ILLEGAL and if you do have insurance it renders it null. The BT community will not support this.
3. Once the buyers makes payment on items to seller, they are now the property of the buyers, any request made by the buyer that could cause to the shipment, goods is now the responsibility of the buyers and not the seller – for example “ship it in a padded envelope so the shipping will be cheaper” and the items arrives bent up. The is the responsibility of the buyer because he made the request to have it shipped that way.

I don’t know how you would like to word it but you get the gest, this community needs both good buyers and good sellers to participate and both should be valued

There are many times where high shipping /insurance will kill a deal for buyers/ sellers and I understand trying to save money on shipping and such but the responsibility should be allocated where it should and known to be done that way.

Just my thoughts.

Warlord

[MagickalMemories]

Unfortunately, all 3 of your suggestions would be micro-managing, and we don't do that. It's up to each trader to determine those things. I do suggest, however, that you (and anyone who likes them) retain those as PERSONAL trade rules and use them accordingly.

Have you called PayPal yet? If so, what did they have to say?


Eric

[Warlord2009]

Unfortunately, all 3 of your suggestions would be micro-managing, and we don't do that. It's up to each trader to determine those things. I do suggest, however, that you (and anyone who likes them) retain those as PERSONAL trade rules and use them accordingly.

Have you called PayPal yet? If so, what did they have to say?

Eric

Yes, I did call Paypal and spoke with a fella. not much help except that he told me that they know for a fact that Brazil takes much longer that normal to arrive and that the buyer should be aware of this also, he also told me that the buyer should have never made the request to de value the items (but this is all out side of what Paypal deals with).

He just esclated this to a claim and most likely Paypal will rule in his favor, I was told they like to see Sending information and delivery (even thought I have no control over this area)

So all of you beware Brazil and other countries, Paypals dispute time and shipping times are off by about as much as a month and a half. I am very angry this guy can get away with this and believe he knew full well that these things can happen.

Oh well I guess I can kiss my miniatures good by! (rant over)

Warlord