Dark Eldar

[MagickalMemories]

So you're saying that it's actaully more harmful to the passengers to be in a vehicle that is wrecked, because it'll cause instant death; than it is to be in a vehicle that explodes?
When a vehicle explodes, it affects models outside and adjacent to it. [although I can't find the rules for that in the 5th ed. book.]

I'm not trying to may any real-world sense of the rules at all. I'm just following them.

that said, remember that you have to follow ALL of the rules whenever possible. So:

So if the vehicle is wrecked or destroyed, the passengers are ejected, forced to disembark, from the vehicle.
If they are withing 1" of enemy models or in dangerous terrain, then they are destroyed.

This is correct.
Now, go back to the rule I quoted earlier that says passengers MAY NOT disembark from a vehicle that moved flat out (or is going to, etc). You have to apply that rule, as well.

Paraphrasing, because I don't have the book at work.

*IF* the vehicle is destroyed, they are not required to *disembark*. So, they don't follow the disembarcation rules. Essentially, they're placed in the crater where the vehicle used to be.
*IF* the vehicle is wrecked, they have to *dismebark* or *emergency disembark,* (both are "disembark" moves) depending on the situation.
Go back to the previous rule, however, and we see that they're not allowed to disembark, since the vehicle moved flat out.
Then, we come back to this rule which states that, if they cannot *disembark* (which we've established that they aren't allowed to), they're destroyed.

Does that necessarily make a lot of sense? No. Not a lot. Some, though.
Is that how GW intended the rule? I don't know.
Until/unless they FAQ it, though, that's the way they progress.
Moved flat out = can't disembark.
Wrecked after moving flat out = dead passengers.
Destroyed after moving flat out = POSSIBLY dead passengers.

Look at it like this...

(wrecked)
"Gah! Were hit."
"The vehicle's faling to pieces around us! Get out!"
"We can't get out, Captain!"
--Bodies are crushed in the ensuing (small) explosions & crumbling mass of metal taht used to be a transport--

(destroyed)
"Gah! We're Hit"
--The vehicle explodes in a huge fireball, hurtling bodies away from the wreckage--
The ensuing explosion has a chance to kill everyone hurtling from it.


Eric

[kturock]

I forgot to add, that a I feel an exploit as something that only 1 player can do, as a way around the rules.

SInce most armies have vehicles, then it's not an exploit.

Like the tank rush or things like that.

Otherwise, anyone playing vesus chaso deamons has an exploit. They can field up to 100% of their army, while the CD can only field 50%.

[MagickalMemories]

If that's how you want to look at it, Then it's all good.
Keep in mind, though, that your definition doesn't meet any *dictionary* definition, really. So, in discussions, people might not get where you're coming from, if it comes up.

What is your take on my point re: wrecked/destroyed after moving flat-out?

Eric

[mrrshann618]

I want to point out one thing simply becuase of how terminology has been used in the argument
on the damage table 5 and 6 read as such
5. Destroyed - Wrecked
6. Destroyed - Explodes

Both are destroyed results.
It already states on pg 66 that they are forced to disembark from a destroyed result 5 or 6 on the damage table
However it states that they canno disembark if they go flatout.
5 details the contingency for disembarking
6 merely states place models, however as per the rule Embarking and Disembarking on pg 66 #6 is a destroyed result and results in disembarking, no matter what it is called or how it is termed.

[kturock]

I want to point out one thing simply becuase of how terminology has been used in the argument
on the damage table 5 and 6 read as such
5. Destroyed - Wrecked
6. Destroyed - Explodes

Both are destroyed results.
It already states on pg 66 that they are forced to disembark from a destroyed result 5 or 6 on the damage table
However it states that they canno disembark if they go flatout.
5 details the contingency for disembarking
6 merely states place models, however as per the rule Embarking and Disembarking on pg 66 #6 is a destroyed result and results in disembarking, no matter what it is called or how it is termed.

you refer to voluntary disembarking, not forced exiting.

6 says, you must leave the vehicle, and what happens. [str 4 hits applied.] Not may, must.
5 says you must exit the vehicle. Not may. must.

If moving flat out affected it, it would state it. It would state that
It states, right below, about shooting at passengers that exit the vehcle. If movement affected it, it would state it also. Because it doesn't state it, it doesn't affect it.

There is no place that damage is affected by movement.
Page 67 says they can perform an emergency disembarkation, even if enemy models or in impassable terrain.
On page 71, it states that if a skimmer moved flat out it crashes and is destroyed [wrecked], if it caused more damage and affected the passengers, it would state it.

You guys are inferring rules that aren't there.

[MagickalMemories]

You guys are inferring rules that aren't there.

How is it an inferrence?
The book says plainly that, if you move flat out, you cannot disembark.
If you cannot disembark the model, it is destroyed.
There's no inferrence. It's plain & simple.

As for why it doesn't say it in that section, it's because the rule doesn't belong there. The rule refers to movement & disembarking.

[don_mondo]

Disembarking is disembarking, voluntary or otherwise. (And show me where the word voluntary is used in the rule......). Anyways, it's not an inference, it's a rule.

Page 70, main rulebook:
Passengers may not embark onto or disembark from a fast vehicle if it has moved (or is going to move) flat out in that Movement phase.

No exceptions listed, so may not disembark means they may not disembark.

[joko12]

But you could make the argument that they are not disembarking the vehicle blows up around them.

There for they take the str 4 hits, and then are placed.

But I think it would say in the book somewhere if a vehicle moves flat out and is transporting people, if it suffers a wreck or destroyed result then the people being transported are also destroyed.

But because it does not say that anywhere specifically is where the problem lies.

[MagickalMemories]

But you could make the argument that they are not disembarking the vehicle blows up around them.

There for they take the str 4 hits, and then are placed.

This is why we (my group) play it the way we do. We play by the letter of the rule whenever possible.
The "Explodes" result (Look, mrrshann618! I used the right term this time! No more slip of the tongue!) does not say 'disembark." It says to put them where the vehicle used to be. "Wrecked" says to disembark.

But I think it would say in the book somewhere if a vehicle moves flat out and is transporting people, if it suffers a wreck or destroyed result then the people being transported are also destroyed.

But because it does not say that anywhere specifically is where the problem lies.

It does say that. It specifically says that. You just have to apply BOTH rules to get it.
1) If the vehicle moved flat out, the models cannot disembark
2) Models that can't disembark or emergency disembark are destroyed.

Plain & simple.

Eric

[joko12]

Ok cool,

What pages does it say those rules on?

Thanks.

[HarlequinZero]

To get this thread back on topic...

Woohoo! My order arrived today! Lovely, lovely Dark Eldar codex and models! Before you ask, no, I am not at liberty to say why I have these before launch. Tomorrow's a holiday here in Japan! Hopefully I'll get some assembling and priming done. Maaaaybe even a photo or two for my blog. Any requests for what I put together first? I've got everything from the initial wave.

[joko12]

I think the Mandrakes are awesome but they will be easy to assemble but I would like to see how you are going to paint them!

But first models to assemble should be Wyches followed by a Raider!

Awesome that you got them I can't wait to read the codex in depth.

[MagickalMemories]

Ok cool,

What pages does it say those rules on?

Thanks.

Double check the thread.
Page numbers for both rules have already been listed.

Sorry. Don't have the book handy.

Eric

[HarlequinZero]

http://spilt-painter.blogspot.com/

Check my blogs latest update for some pics. I'm going to go lie down and pass out now.

[joko12]

They look sweet feel better, that flu is nasty this time of year