Dark Eldar

[MagickalMemories]

we have always played that in situations such as that (up until now it was ork trukks) that since they cannot technically disembark (for any reason) they die a horrible death, either in the twisted metal or by being thrown from the vehicle.
I think however there is sometihng in the open top section station that you cannot assault from any vehicle that has moved more than 12" (13" for red paint job)

That would be correct.
@joko
Your friend found an easy way to kill a unit of Wyches.


Eric

[joko12]

That's what I thought would happen but it dosent actually say anything in the rules so he was arguing it to death.

Is it in an faq or something just for clarification?

[kturock]

Umm where do you see that?

page 71 in the little book, says that it becomes wrecked if it moved flat out and becomes immobilised.
page 71 says the skimmer has 3+ chance to avoid the ramming vehicle, as long as it's not another skimmer. [which can't be dodged.]

page 70 for open topped may disembark even if the vehicle moved. it also says it's easier to bail out from an open top, and the hit inflicted on passengers is 1 point lower than a normal transport. [so it's a str 3 hit if it explodes]

page 67 says vehicles that are wrecked, the passengers must immediately disembark and suffer a pinning test. any model that can't disembark is destroyed.

on page 67 it says that vehicle explodes results cause the passengers to takes strength 4 ap- hits equal to the number of passengers. survivng models then take a pinning test.

Where do you ready auto killed????

so rhino attempts to ram skimmer.
skimmer misses dodge roll.
skimmer gets immobilized which becomes wrecked because it's a skimmer.
passengers bail out of skimmer.

Unless they can't get out, because the vehicle is surrounded by impassable terrain, or is at a board edge, or is surrounded by enemy models, the passengers can bail out.
it's pinned from 1 side, so the can bail out the rest..as long as their aren't within 1 inch of enemy models. since it's open-topped, the get a bonus to avoid the damage. and since it's opened topped, then can get out of any side, of the skimmer, not just an access hatch.

sounds like someone confused some older rules..
1 friend of mine and I played 5th ed. early, we used to play rt & 2nd ed. alot.. he's played a couple games with 3rd or 4th. he was surprised how survivable it is to be a passenger of a wrecked or destroyed vehicle.

[MagickalMemories]

Keep in mind that the skimmer was the one doing the ramming. It wasn't the one rammed. So, in the case that he's talking about, it wouldn't get a chance to avoid the ram. They can only avoid it if they're the target of the ram.

That said, the skimmer moved flat out. Rulebook page 70 (probably in the small book, too) states that "Passengers may not embark onto or disembark from a vehicle if it has moved (or is going to move) flat out in the movement phase.

Since, after a vehicle is wrecked, you have to disembark. Due to the movement, you can't disembark... so, the models are dead (pg 67).

I noticed something this time around that I missed last time, though.
As it turns out, they DID play it the right way. I overlooked that he rolled a 5 on the chart, which went to a 6 for being open topped. I was thinking that the 5 was the final result.

In this case, the models survive. On page 67, under "Destroyed - explodes," the book indicates that the models are placed where the vehicle used to be (it does not say they disembark). So, yeah... They take the S4 hits (S3 in this case) and then survive.
Weird that, on a bigger hit, they still have a chance at survival. Huh?


So, kt, it turns out that you're right, but not for the reasons you thought.

Eric

[mrrshann618]

I do not have the rule book in front of me however I do know that no unit may disembark from a vehicle if the vehicle has gone flat out.
SO
Vehicle goes flat out and is wrecked, unit cannot disembark due to limitation placed on by type of movement. Since as stated, any model that cannot disembark is destroyed. Unit destroyed

And kturock I understood it as the other way around.
Raider rams Rhino going flat out
add all modifyers and raider takes and auto pen thanks to a av 10 from the reaction hit.
now
Since the vehicle was going flat out, and no model may disembark when going flat out, the passengers in the screaming missile known as a raider basicaly get pasted because they cannot disembark and as such are destroyed. Being unable to disembark overrides any further condition about taking wounds from being forced to disembark.

*edit* I also did not notice the final result was modified to the explosion result. Mind stopped at the mention of wrecked.

[kturock]

Ya, I thoguth the rhino rammed.

A skimmer to ram a tank ..isn't smart.

then again on warseer, last week. they were discussing this sort of thing, travel at full speed, and get shot of the air to get to disembark the same turn.

they got a 50% chance of survival. str 3 vs t3.

[joko12]

Yes that was the debate because if the vehicle blows up can they now assault?

Because they did not technically disembark it just blew up around them.

Its really weird.

[kturock]

I do not have the rule book in front of me however I do know that no unit may disembark from a vehicle if the vehicle has gone flat out.
SO
Vehicle goes flat out and is wrecked, unit cannot disembark due to limitation placed on by type of movement. Since as stated, any model that cannot disembark is destroyed. Unit destroyed

And kturock I understood it as the other way around.
Raider rams Rhino going flat out
add all modifyers and raider takes and auto pen thanks to a av 10 from the reaction hit.
now
Since the vehicle was going flat out, and no model may disembark when going flat out, the passengers in the screaming missile known as a raider basicaly get pasted because they cannot disembark and as such are destroyed. Being unable to disembark overrides any further condition about taking wounds from being forced to disembark.

*edit* I also did not notice the final result was modified to the explosion result. Mind stopped at the mention of wrecked.

I respectfully disagree.
the passengers didn't disembark.
disembark means they exited the vehicle. they voluntarily leave the vehicle.

the vehicle blew up and they were ejected. they take s3 ap- hits and have to take a pinning test.

I have the rulebook right here.

follow the steps.
skimmer moves flat out.
skimmer rams tank.
damage caused, destroys skimmer.
damage result says quote, "The surviving passengers take str 4 ap- hits equal to the number of models embarked, treated just like hits from shooting. The surviving passengers are placed where the vehicle used to be and then take a Pinning test."

It doesn't say they disembark. It says they are 'placed' where the vehicle was. It doesn't say, 'unless the vehicle moved, moved flat out or is painted red.' It says they are placed. It doesn't say they are disembarked. They are placed. So yes, they can't disembark. They are placed.

It's straight forward. The 5th ed rules aren't as lethal to passengers as they used to be.

We had this happen yesterday.
My friend didn't put any troops in a rhino, fearing the old vehicle destroyed, passengers dead rule.
He shot up my rhino, it wrecked and we discussed what would happen IF it explodes.
Back in the older editions, it was passengers killed. Now they just take str 4 AP- hits. Vesus orcs or DE it might be deadly.

[mrrshann618]

I added the *edit* before hand mentioning I was arguing about the destroyed -wrecked result. destroyed - Wrecked is the only result that actually indicates the unit is flat out destroyed. According to how the rules are written there is no pentaly for going 4 billion inches in one turn and surviving a destroyed - explodes result by only taking a str 4/3 hit
as it is written you want to get a 6 instead of a 5 on the damage chart if going flat out becuase you actually survive.

On the other hand on pg 66 under embarking and disembarking it makes a mention that no unit can voluntarily embark and disembark in the same turn, however they are "then forced to disembark if thier transport is destroyed". It indicates that a destroyed result does cause an involuntary disembark. Weather the destroyed - explodes result is treated as a disembark or not, there are no rules pertaining to a unit being unable to disembark if a 6 is rolled only that the unit takes the hit. At that point there is conflicting rules, Pg 66 states that a unit is forced to diesmbark is the transport is destroyed, however it later states that a unit may not disembark if the transport has gone flat out. Technically the unit is left in limbo, niether being able to disembark not being destroyed.

I personally take this to be an exploit of the rules, and will be continuing to play this as our group has. Thus preventing the intentional destruction of your own troops (akin to not being able to shoot into your own guys). There are rules everywhere stating that you cannot intentionally harm your own troops (cannot tank shock over melee as it may harm your own troops, cannot shoot into melee as it may harm your own troops) Normal ramming would not guarentee a death of your vehicle and thus I would have no problem of this. Intentionally destroying your own unit is against the intention of all the rules of the game.

[kturock]

How is it an exploit?

If you move flat out, you can't exit the vehicle. You can't voluntarily exit it.

If the vehicle explodes, you will be ejected from the vehicle. No choice.

Now, on the wrecked result..it says the passengers must disembark. That is different than if the vehicle is destroyed.

Page 66 says "they may embark and be forced to disembark if the transport is destroyed." Forced to disembark, not 'allowed to', or 'may disembark'.

Forced to disembark. Not, 'allowed' to disembark. Ejected from the vehicle. Yes its the semantics. If a vehicle moved 4x the speed of a human walked, everyone is trapped in and can't escape? [24" is 4x 6" normal movement. Normal walking speed.] Human walking speed is about 5 mph. So, if this military vehilce drives 20mph, it's a death trap? The models can't escape? Yes, I can easily see that the can't step out of a vehicle, they can't disembark. But you can't escape it if it crashes? Hardly.

So if the vehicle is wrecked or destroyed, the passengers are ejected, forced to disembark, from the vehicle.
If they are withing 1" of enemy models or in dangerous terrain, then they are destroyed.
Not if the vehicle moved flat out.

So if you want to destroy any model, with no save possible, encircle the vehicle and then get a wrecked result. It a good way to take out a tuff unit with a low save, like termies. HQ GK termies in a land raider, that would be spectatular.

[Ironhide]

Vehicle destroyed = involuntary disembark. (pg. 66)

It's an exploit, because the guy knew the Raider would be destroyed when trying to ram. He wanted to get his Wyches across the board and into assault ASAP.

Didn't the DE have special rules on embarking/disembarking in their last codex? Did they lose those in the new?

[kturock]

Vehicle destroyed = involuntary disembark. (pg. 66)

It's an exploit, because the guy knew the Raider would be destroyed when trying to ram. He wanted to get his Wyches across the board and into assault ASAP.

Didn't the DE have special rules on embarking/disembarking in their last codex? Did they lose those in the new?

It's not an expolit, since the rules allow it. Every and any vehicle can do it, from any army. You destroy a transport, and give the opponent points and hope you minis inside survive the crash and aren't pinned.

it's a gamble. so is drop pods and deepstriking. with a bad roll, you can end up off the board or in impassable terrain...and dead units.


I just looked through the '2nd edition' 2001 de codex and don't see any special rules other than open topped.

[MagickalMemories]

It *IS* an exploit.*

Note the asterisk. More on that below.

Forced to disembark. Not, 'allowed' to disembark. Ejected from the vehicle. Yes its the semantics. If a vehicle moved 4x the speed of a human walked, everyone is trapped in and can't escape? [24" is 4x 6" normal movement. Normal walking speed.] Human walking speed is about 5 mph. So, if this military vehilce drives 20mph, it's a death trap? The models can't escape? Yes, I can easily see that the can't step out of a vehicle, they can't disembark. But you can't escape it if it crashes? Hardly.

So if the vehicle is wrecked or destroyed, the passengers are ejected, forced to disembark, from the vehicle.
If they are withing 1" of enemy models or in dangerous terrain, then they are destroyed.
Not if the vehicle moved flat out.

So, are you maintaining that, if the vehicle moved flat out, then was wrecked (a 5 on the chart), the models ARE or ARE NOT automatically dead?

*
re: exploit.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/exploit
There are many definitions of exploit. Before arguing about it, be certain that you're both using the same definition.
I'd do a copy/past but, for some reason, the site's not allowing it (it usuaally does).
Some definitions refer to it as a heroic deed. Others refer to is as "especially" in unethical situations.
My preferred definitions are, "to utilize, esp. for profit" and "to use selfishly for one's own ends."

I think he's definitely exploiting the rule, if we use those definitions.
I'm not criticizing the guy for it. Personally, I wouldn't do it for fear of getting a "6" on the chart (I hold to the flat out = "no disembark AT ALL" reading of the rule), but I don't begrudge him the risk.
I find it to be fair and within the scope of the rules, but it's definitely exploiting it for an advantageous situation. It's just like moving your unit to within 2" of a transport, embarking, then moving 12" with the transport. It's a quick way to get a unit almost 18" across the field.
It's exploiting the movement rules, but not in such a way that it breaks (or even bends) them.

Eric

[kturock]

Yes, I'm saying that a crash at 20 mph, which is flat out, the passengers inside are not dead; just from the crash alone.

Why would they die on wrecked, but not on explosion?

They get ejected on an explosion and have str 4 [or 3] hits.
On wrecked, the vehicle comes to a halt, and just sits there.

I feel that it says the only way the passengers die, with no save, is if the vehicle is surrounded by enemy models, so the passengers can't escape, or if it's in dangerous terrain, and the passengers would get hurt escaping.

That's what it says...
follow the line of progression.

Vehicle moves flat out. then no, they can't volunarily exit, no matter where it stops. it doesn't say this is affected by, or affects damage.

vehicle gets damaged, from shooting or a ram. [ramming rules says treat it like shooting damage]

vehicle is wrecked, passengers are thrown out, and unless surrounded or in/on dangerous terrain, they escape. and are placed around wreck and might be pinned.

vehicle explodes, passengers are thrown out and may die from the explosion. They can be thrown out in dangerous terrain, they can be thrown out if surrounded. If they don't die in the explosion, then they might be pinned.

So you're saying that it's actaully more harmful to the passengers to be in a vehicle that is wrecked, because it'll cause instant death; than it is to be in a vehicle that explodes?
When a vehicle explodes, it affects models outside and adjacent to it. [although I can't find the rules for that in the 5th ed. book.]

[MagickalMemories]

So you're saying that it's actaully more harmful to the passengers to be in a vehicle that is wrecked, because it'll cause instant death; than it is to be in a vehicle that explodes?
When a vehicle explodes, it affects models outside and adjacent to it. [although I can't find the rules for that in the 5th ed. book.]

I'm not trying to may any real-world sense of the rules at all. I'm just following them.

that said, remember that you have to follow ALL of the rules whenever possible. So:

So if the vehicle is wrecked or destroyed, the passengers are ejected, forced to disembark, from the vehicle.
If they are withing 1" of enemy models or in dangerous terrain, then they are destroyed.

This is correct.
Now, go back to the rule I quoted earlier that says passengers MAY NOT disembark from a vehicle that moved flat out (or is going to, etc). You have to apply that rule, as well.

Paraphrasing, because I don't have the book at work.

*IF* the vehicle is destroyed, they are not required to *disembark*. So, they don't follow the disembarcation rules. Essentially, they're placed in the crater where the vehicle used to be.
*IF* the vehicle is wrecked, they have to *dismebark* or *emergency disembark,* (both are "disembark" moves) depending on the situation.
Go back to the previous rule, however, and we see that they're not allowed to disembark, since the vehicle moved flat out.
Then, we come back to this rule which states that, if they cannot *disembark* (which we've established that they aren't allowed to), they're destroyed.

Does that necessarily make a lot of sense? No. Not a lot. Some, though.
Is that how GW intended the rule? I don't know.
Until/unless they FAQ it, though, that's the way they progress.
Moved flat out = can't disembark.
Wrecked after moving flat out = dead passengers.
Destroyed after moving flat out = POSSIBLY dead passengers.

Look at it like this...

(wrecked)
"Gah! Were hit."
"The vehicle's faling to pieces around us! Get out!"
"We can't get out, Captain!"
--Bodies are crushed in the ensuing (small) explosions & crumbling mass of metal taht used to be a transport--

(destroyed)
"Gah! We're Hit"
--The vehicle explodes in a huge fireball, hurtling bodies away from the wreckage--
The ensuing explosion has a chance to kill everyone hurtling from it.


Eric