[40k] Calling all vet gamers: How do you use this unit?

[Asif Chaudhry]

So, I was working on how I was going to model my Salamanders marines out of the available models I have (and what I plan to try to trade for next), and came up with this ludicrous monstrosity:

Vanguard Veteran squad (125)
+ 5 addt'l Vets (+100)
+ Jump Packs (+100)
+ exchange Sarge P.sword for T.hammer (+15)
+ exchange 9 chainswords for T. hammers (+270)
+ exchange 10 bolt pistols for 10 storm shields (+150)

Total = 760 pts

(For the purposes of this exercise, you may assume that Vulkan He'stan is the force leader, thus replacing Combat Tactics with free master crafting on all Thunder Hammers in the army)

--------------------------

So, rules of this topic:

1.) No "that's stupid/never would use it/eggs all in one basket" posts - I REALIZE all of the above and more. The original impetus for actually designing the above unit is the fact that I picked up a lot of minis on Ebay that included 10 old turbofan jump packs and 10 Mark 5 heresy armor bodies. So, I was trying to think of assault unit rules for a 10 man jump pack squad. I'm not approaching this unit from the gamer's side, I'm approaching it from the hobbyist/modeler's side. Which is why I'm asking all the gamers for HELP. After all, I'd like the models I spend so much time converting and painting to at least stay on the table a while.

2.) You can discuss this unit within the context of army construction - i.e. "If someone held a gun to my head, I would build the other 1,550 pts of my 2,500 pt Ardboyz tournament army THIS way...." (remembering that you already spent 190 pts for Vulkan He'stan as an HQ)

3.) You can discuss this unit within the context of tactics - i.e. "Obviously you want to deep strike the unit, to take advantage of 'Heroic Intervention' for the Vanguard - the ability to deep strike and charge in the same turn will help keep your basket of eggs from being vaporized immediately' vs 'Obviously, you don't want to deep strike, to avoid having 1/3 of your army never showing up" or "This is a tabling unit, pure and simple, don't waste time trying to hold objectives" vs "Run around and make the other guy think you are trying to table him, and then on the last turn, sit on one of his objectives - with the 3+ armor/3+ inv, this will be a unit that is impossible to shift in 1 turn", etc

4.) You can discuss this unit within the context of specific opponents - i.e. "Against mass shooty armies like IG and Tau, they'll run screaming from the table as you pac-man from 1 unit to another, but Ork Nobz mobs with power klaws, a pain doc, and a warlord will simply chew you up and spit you out in one turn"

5.) You can discuss specific game rules - i.e. "You do realize that at Initiative 1, even if you charge, all your guys strike last, so you can only realistically charge feeb units?" (obviously, I know the Initiative 1 rule, but there might be others I forgot).

6.) (for the new Blood Angels players) - How would this unit fair against the armies you are all planning and building? Do you laugh? Do you cringe? Do you go "Meh.." ? And if you had to use this unit AGAINST blood angels, how would you do it/which units would you go after first?

----------------

Basically - imagine you go to a tournament, and the tourney organizer gets all the matchups and tables set, and then says "Surprise - now swap your army with your opponent, and fight!".

If you got stuck with an army that had a unit like this, what would you hope is also in the army, and how would you go about trying to win with it?

Final rule for this discussion - you may assume I am a newb at 40K, as I have yet to actually play 5th edition, and only played 3rd/4th edition sparingly.

Let the arguing....errr...discussion commence!
-Asif Chaudhry

[MagickalMemories]

I'm at work, so time's precious.
I can't type out something the likes of which you have, but a few notes come to mind:

1) I've played this very setup before. it is the exact beating stick it looks to be. 3+/3+ saves are truly annoying for your opponent. They WILL NOT like this unit.

2) Heroic Intervention is important. Hope for a decent deepstrike. Assault 2 (non-bad @ss) units, if possible. You don't want these guys as sitting ducks on your opponents turn. Hopefully, you can kill those 2 units on HIS turn to have your move available on your own.

3) You will take a LOT of shooting on this unit. Every model that dies is a huge step up for your opponent.

4) The only things you need to concern yourself with are units with weapons/abilities that don't allow ANY saves (rare).

5) Seek out your opponents toughest HtH with this unit. For some (sickeningly built Death Co. units), it'll be a no holds barred slug-fest. For others, your 3+/3+ will win the day and allow you to drop them in 1 or 2 turns of combat.

6) You'll need to be troop HEAVY, aside from this unit, in order to compete in objectives missions. Likely, your shooting or HtH (outside this one unit) will suffer.

Those are just some quick thoughts off of the top of my head to get you started.

Eric

Oh, and:

7) I do NOT want to see this unit fielded against me.

[JohnHwangBT]

Rules? tl;dr

I say - if you want to field it, do so!

If you're taking Vulkan as well, with a couple Tac squads in Rhinos, you're easily over 1000 pts in a quick hurry, so remaining points need to be cheap just to get your model count back to "normal".

I'd want a Dread in Pod for oomph & a couple Razor squads for backup, with a Jump Chaplain for style points. I think that gets you up to size for regular games.

Larger games of 2000 pts could add Whirlwind, Landspeeder, Devastators, and/or cheap Assault Marines, depending on your preference.

[Asif Chaudhry]

Hey Eric - thanks for the reply! My stuff below:

- But, last rule: No one should feel like a reply has to incorporate all my OP points! If you just want to post a reply focusing on building a 1,550 pt force to supplement this uber unit, that's great! Or if you want to talk about how Necron warscythes should be shot with maximum prejudice and not engaged in HtH, awesome!

But if you hit al the points like Eric did - then "Merci mega-Beaucoup!".

I'm at work, so time's precious.
I can't type out something the likes of which you have, but a few notes come to mind:

1) I've played this very setup before. it is the exact beating stick it looks to be. 3+/3+ saves are truly annoying for your opponent. They WILL NOT like this unit.

I figured that would depend on the opponent - I've fielded an Eldar army with 10 Wraithguard (like the poster in the "comment on my 1250 tourney army" thread), and found that it was great against other "elites" armies. With a Warlock casting Conceal, and a Farseer casting Fortune nearby, that unit of T6, 3+/5+, re-roll failed saves, was unstoppable.

However, when I had a "try the new 5th ed rules" game with a guy and his girl friend, her Ork Nob mob, all with power klawz, simply DESTROYED the exact same unit of Wraithguard through the simple expedient of negating my T6 and 3+ armor with ST 8 power klawz, and got through the 5+ re-rollable by having something like 6 attacks EACH guy - the "bucket of dice" method for eliminating annoying troops still seems to hold strong in 5th ed.

So IG who say "I shoot 120 lasguns at you" probably don't care about this kind of unit either.

2) Heroic Intervention is important. Hope for a decent deepstrike. Assault 2 (non-bad @ss) units, if possible. You don't want these guys as sitting ducks on your opponents turn. Hopefully, you can kill those 2 units on HIS turn to have your move available on your own.

That's what I thought too - but the notion that I would be facing 2500 pts of opposing army with only 1740 pts of my own for multiple turns if my reserves rolls are crappy is definitely disturbing.

3) You will take a LOT of shooting on this unit. Every model that dies is a huge step up for your opponent.

4) The only things you need to concern yourself with are units with weapons/abilities that don't allow ANY saves (rare).

5) Seek out your opponents toughest HtH with this unit. For some (sickeningly built Death Co. units), it'll be a no holds barred slug-fest. For others, your 3+/3+ will win the day and allow you to drop them in 1 or 2 turns of combat.

See - this is where I think this unit would just get killed. I mean, sure, they hit at ST 8, negate armor saves, and instant kill T4 or less. BUT, they ALWAYS strike last (except other Init = 1 guys), so against other power weapon fielding troops, they are just T4, 3+(inv) guys. I'd expect nasty HtH armies (Orks, Nids, Death Company) to simply MUNCH this Vanguard unit before it ever got hit backs.

Now - if I could some how magically attach an Apothecary so they had "Feel no Pain" - that would be disgusting.

Oh wait - Blood Angels can do that now, with Sang Priests.... That is just ill-making...

6) You'll need to be troop HEAVY, aside from this unit, in order to compete in objectives missions. Likely, your shooting or HtH (outside this one unit) will suffer.

I figured as much - although I'm toying with having some Sternguard with 2 Heavy Flamers (twin-linked) as close support units. But lots of Tacticals, and some Scouts with pinning Sniper rifles sounds about right.

Those are just some quick thoughts off of the top of my head to get you started.

Eric

Oh, and:

7) I do NOT want to see this unit fielded against me.

If I ever happen to come to St. Louis, I'll be sure to keep them in the case.

[Asif Chaudhry]

Rules? tl;dr

I say - if you want to field it, do so!

If you're taking Vulkan as well, with a couple Tac squads in Rhinos, you're easily over 1000 pts in a quick hurry, so remaining points need to be cheap just to get your model count back to "normal".

I'd want a Dread in Pod for oomph & a couple Razor squads for backup, with a Jump Chaplain for style points. I think that gets you up to size for regular games.

Larger games of 2000 pts could add Whirlwind, Landspeeder, Devastators, and/or cheap Assault Marines, depending on your preference.

Hey John, thanks for the advice.

Jump packing Chaplains are "stylish", huh? Well I've got tons of those lying around, so I'll maybe convert one up with a turbofan if I can find an 11th one.

My preference for now in terms of Razorback squads is to go with Sternguard - their ability to take 2 Heavy Flamers (assault) coupled with free twin-linking (vulkan) makes them the perfect anti-horde unit.

Dread in a Pod sounds fun, but I don't currently have any RT-era dreads, so they are out for now. Ditto with the speeders. But Devs and a bike squad (using Mk II bikes with the wing fairings) would be doable with my current models on hand.

Thanks for the ideas!
-Asif

[MagickalMemories]

See - this is where I think this unit would just get killed. I mean, sure, they hit at ST 8, negate armor saves, and instant kill T4 or less. BUT, they ALWAYS strike last (except other Init = 1 guys), so against other power weapon fielding troops, they are just T4, 3+(inv) guys. I'd expect nasty HtH armies (Orks, Nids, Death Company) to simply MUNCH this Vanguard unit before it ever got hit backs.

Now - if I could some how magically attach an Apothecary so they had "Feel no Pain" - that would be disgusting.

Oh wait - Blood Angels can do that now, with Sang Priests.... That is just ill-making...

I purposefully didn't mention BA's, though I desperately wanted to. LOL

If you're really tied to wanting Sternguard, then take the HQ that allows them to be fielded as troops - can't recall his name off of the top of my head. If you're going to have the Sternguard too, you might as well maximize their usability.

As for the rest of the quote...
My MAIN focus in referring to "tough HtH units" is walkers and monstrous creatures. I don't care WHAT kind of rerolls it can give itself, a CSM Demon Prince is toast against these guys. This unit could probably eat a couple of those (walkers/MC's) at a time, until attrition catches up with them.

Re Vanguard:
Yes. You're only T4 with a 3+ save... So? LOL
I think you're undervaluing BOTH of those facts.

Let's take your Death Co for an example. I don't recall how many attacks they get, but I'm going to do the math based on 4 attacks. It's easy math and, if I'm overdoing it... then the Vanguards are that much better. : )
Both units are WS4 (Death Co. don't get a bump there. Do they?). So, they're hitting on 4's. Out of 40 attacks (assuming a 10-man squad), they get 20 hits. With power weapons, they're wounding on 4's again. Okay. Ten wounds.
So, now you have 10 saves to make. You're saving on 3+, so you make 66% of your saves on average. You lose 3 guys.
You're attacking back with 7 guys. What are they, three attacks on the charge? So, 21 attacks. That equates to 10.5 (round to 11) hits, which equates to 9.16 dead Death Company.

Seems like a fair trade to ME.

Of course, before anyone else points it out, I'm aware that I'm doing my calculations presuming that the Death Company isn't disgustingly outfitted (like the Vanguard). In situations like that, you'd want to soften them up with shooting, first, of course.

Eric

[Ironhide]

Uh, maybe the title should be "How would you use this unit?"

[Asif Chaudhry]

See - this is where I think this unit would just get killed. I mean, sure, they hit at ST 8, negate armor saves, and instant kill T4 or less. BUT, they ALWAYS strike last (except other Init = 1 guys), so against other power weapon fielding troops, they are just T4, 3+(inv) guys. I'd expect nasty HtH armies (Orks, Nids, Death Company) to simply MUNCH this Vanguard unit before it ever got hit backs.

Now - if I could some how magically attach an Apothecary so they had "Feel no Pain" - that would be disgusting.

Oh wait - Blood Angels can do that now, with Sang Priests.... That is just ill-making...

I purposefully didn't mention BA's, though I desperately wanted to. LOL

If you're really tied to wanting Sternguard, then take the HQ that allows them to be fielded as troops - can't recall his name off of the top of my head. If you're going to have the Sternguard too, you might as well maximize their usability.

Okay, this brings to mind a serious question I have:

1st off, it's Pedro Kantor (Crimson Fists Chapter Master) who has the "Hold the Line!" special rule which states:

"If your army includes Pedro Kantor, your Sternguard Veteran squads are scoring units"

And page 90 of the rulebook (I'm using the mini book from the box set) states:

"An army's scoring units are all units that come from its Troops allowance" It goes on to mention some exceptions to this.

So - I get it, that in missions that require "scoring units", Sternguard count as such if Pedro is hanging around. But does Kantor's rule mean you can use Sternguard as Troops selections when building your army?

I'm inclined to say NO - they still count as Elites choices, but they can control objectives in certain scenarios. I can't find anything to contradict this in GWs FAQs.

Can someone clarify this for me or point me at a ruling? Essentially, we know Troops = Scoring. Does it follow that something that counts as Scoring = Troops?

Also, what is the wording on BA assault squads - do you buy them as troops, or does it say "They are scoring units" ?

As for the rest of the quote...
My MAIN focus in referring to "tough HtH units" is walkers and monstrous creatures. I don't care WHAT kind of rerolls it can give itself, a CSM Demon Prince is toast against these guys. This unit could probably eat a couple of those (walkers/MC's) at a time, until attrition catches up with them.

Re Vanguard:
Yes. You're only T4 with a 3+ save... So? LOL
I think you're undervaluing BOTH of those facts.

It's possible - again, haven't played in a long while, and my last experience was the aforementioned emasculation of my 10 man T6, 3+/5+ re-rollable save Wraithguard unit, so that might be clouding my judgement.

Let's take your Death Co for an example. I don't recall how many attacks they get, but I'm going to do the math based on 4 attacks. It's easy math and, if I'm overdoing it... then the Vanguards are that much better. : )
Both units are WS4 (Death Co. don't get a bump there. Do they?). So, they're hitting on 4's. Out of 40 attacks (assuming a 10-man squad), they get 20 hits. With power weapons, they're wounding on 4's again. Okay. Ten wounds.
So, now you have 10 saves to make. You're saving on 3+, so you make 66% of your saves on average. You lose 3 guys.
You're attacking back with 7 guys. What are they, three attacks on the charge? So, 21 attacks. That equates to 10.5 (round to 11) hits, which equates to 9.16 dead Death Company.

Seems like a fair trade to ME.

Of course, before anyone else points it out, I'm aware that I'm doing my calculations presuming that the Death Company isn't disgustingly outfitted (like the Vanguard). In situations like that, you'd want to soften them up with shooting, first, of course.

Eric

Hmm - I guess when you put it like that, it makes more sense. By the way, the math on the T-hammers is off because they are all 10 of them master-crafted, so assuming 1 miss per guy, you have 7 re-rolls to add in (3.5 more hits, so about 3 more wounds thereabouts).

By the way, don't you own the BA codex Eric? I'm just going off the internet and heresay, and previous experience with my friend's BA. Stupid death company used to be free and he'd just test each of his units before the game started to see how big the unit became - ridiculous.

[MagickalMemories]

1st off, it's Pedro Kantor (Crimson Fists Chapter Master) who has the "Hold the Line!" special rule which states:

"If your army includes Pedro Kantor, your Sternguard Veteran squads are scoring units"

Yep. That's the guy!

And page 90 of the rulebook (I'm using the mini book from the box set) states:

"An army's scoring units are all units that come from its Troops allowance" It goes on to mention some exceptions to this.

So - I get it, that in missions that require "scoring units", Sternguard count as such if Pedro is hanging around. But does Kantor's rule mean you can use Sternguard as Troops selections when building your army?

I'm inclined to say NO - they still count as Elites choices, but they can control objectives in certain scenarios. I can't find anything to contradict this in GWs FAQs.

Can someone clarify this for me or point me at a ruling? Essentially, we know Troops = Scoring. Does it follow that something that counts as Scoring = Troops?

You're forgetting the all important "Codex over rules rulebook."
Whether Kantor is alive or not, any Sternguard units in his army are scoring. So, you're looking at 9 scoring units, potentially, in a Kantor SM army, unless you combat squad - which makes it 18.

They're still Elites... but they're SCORING elites.
In my haste, I misspoke earlier when I said "troops." I should've said "scoring."

Also, what is the wording on BA assault squads - do you buy them as troops, or does it say "They are scoring units" ?

Troops. They are a troop unit.

By the way, don't you own the BA codex Eric? I'm just going off the internet and heresay, and previous experience with my friend's BA. Stupid death company used to be free and he'd just test each of his units before the game started to see how big the unit became - ridiculous.

I do have the codex. Didn't have it earlier, as I keep them far from work, where' they'd be even MORE of a distraction than BTown already is. LOL
Death company are, now, bought as a unit (with actual points). They're a troop choice, but are non-scoring (says so in the codex). You don't get the "if you buy a nominal sized squad, you get to try to raid your other units to add free ones to it on the cheap" ability any longer.
They can still be ridiculous, though:

20 pts base, each
Unit size: 3 - 30
EVERY MODEL can have up to 2 of the following:
P Weapon
P Fist
T Hammer
They can get jump packs
For every 5 models, one can have a hand flamer, melta pistol or plasma pistol.
You can get models that cost 95 points each, with jump packs & 2 Thunder Hammers. LOL

That help?

Eric

[EZ mac]

id just take shrike and infiltrate with them and assault turn 1. The rest of the army would be something like just adding in as much shooting as possble

like

shrike-195

ur rediculous unit- 760

(so 955)

5x tactical squads, combi melta, razorback with plas/las= 175 ea or 875
2x dreads with auto cannons= 125ea or 250
3x preds with auto cannons heavy bolters= 85e or 255
2x speeders with mm/hflamer=70easo 140 total

total is 2475 so add in 25 to something

idea is to get at least 1 solid shooting turn while ur opponent focuses on the dumb unit. and they do assault first turn in this list with the whole fleet and infiltrate and jpack things.

anyway have fun, that was my list help for the day

[Dakkar98]

Can someone clarify this for me or point me at a ruling? Essentially, we know Troops = Scoring. Does it follow that something that counts as Scoring = Troops?

No, they do not count as troops.

In The SM Codex under Pedro Cantor's Chapter Tactics it says "Sternguard Veteran squads gain the Hold the Line! special rule.
Under Hold the Line! is says "If your army includes Pedro Cantor, your Sternguard Veteran squads count as scoring units."

In the BA Codex under Dante it says "In an army that includes Commander Dante, Sanguinary Guards are Troops choices."
In the SW Codex under Logan Grimnar it states "Wolf Guard units count as Troops choices in any army that includes Logan Grimnar."
In the SW Codex under Canis Wolfborn it states "Fenrisian wolves count as Troops in any army that includes Canis Wolfborn."

Using Pedro's Chapter Tactics gives you the potential for 9 scoring units on the field.
However, the whole thing with Chapter Tactics thing is that you can only use one special character's Chapter Tactics in a battle.

So, you could not use both Vulkan's and Pedro's Chapter Tactics.

[reegsk]

Speaking more to the original topic, about the Vanguard Vets, I have to say that it's a unit I wouldn't want to face either, but that's more in my army design than anything else. The major weakness of that unit wouldn't so much be elite units with power weapon/fist attacks, like terminators and meganobs, but more units that throw a LOT of dice, whether it be from shooting or close combat. As your save is the same no matter what, and the only two things that can take away both of them are Callidus Assassins and C'Tans, you're always going to get a 3+ save. So 2/3rds of everything that hits you is going to do nothing. By the math, if you charged into a unit of ten meganobz, you're going to lose four guys, which definitely sucks. But in exchange, that entire unit of meganobz will be killed 3.2 times over. Even if your opponent includes a Warboss, you'll lose one more marine, which would make half of your squad (which sucks!), but you'd still take out the warboss and the nobz. The downside here is that you're using about 800 points to kill a unit and character a little more than half that cost. Now, if you ran these bad boys into a unit of thirty slugga/choppa boys with a nob, you're going to lose five models before they strike, and possibly one more from the nob striking simultaneously. You'll kill ten in return, and the Ork player will lose another three models from Fearless. But next turn, your unit will probably be wiped out before they attack at all.

So the unit can be very effective, you just have to be very careful about where you place it and what you charge with it. On the bright side, you don't have to fear battle tanks and vindicators as much as other units. Sure, they still wound you on 2's with pie plates, but you're still rolling a 3+ save regardless. Your opponent should be dropping his AP2/3 crap on units that won't get a save from it. The Achilles' Heel of this unit is actually ork mobs (slugga or shoota. . .one round of shoota shooting would take down about three dudes, even without using Big Shootas), IG Platoons, Death Company, Hormagaunts/Raveners/Genestealers, and so on. Things that will throw a lot of dice at you, and they don't need to have power weapons, becuase it won't matter against these guys. Good targets for this unit, IMHO, would be Nobs (you'll take some casualties, but still annihilate the enemy), walkers, nearly any space marine unit save for death company and khorne berserkers (due to number of attacks and WS5), and, of course, units of vehicles that aren't AV14 all around. They would be especially good against plague marines, the bane of many an assault unit's existence.

Heroic Intervention would be your best bet in most circumstances. If you find yourself against an all-mounted assault army, then I would deploy them because they won't take a lot of long-range fire. Otherwise, Deep Strike with Heroic Intervention to minimize their exposure. This will do two things: one, they can get into the fight right away and start earning their points back, and two, after they assault and slaughter a unit, your opponent will freak out and focus fire on them, like as not ignoring the rest of your army. I would second the idea of a drop pod in this army, maybe two, both with Locator Beacons, and strike them in right near choice Heroic Intervention targets. Actually, if you're rolling with Vulkan, maybe take a Sternguard Vet squad, ten strong, five combi-flamers and five combi-meltas, and then you can choose whether to combat squad out of the drop pod, with the flamers going after things like IG command squads/heavy weapon squads or devastators, and the meltas hunting vehicles or heavy infantry (Vulkan gives twin-linked to flamers too, right?). And if your opponent knows about the doom of assault veterans that's coming, he'll probably shoot up your drop pods, which is fire that's not being directed at the rest of your army. Bonus -- whatever comes out of the drop pods may also distract your opponent from firing at the vanguard vets when they first arrive.

Oh, and lastly, I would also second the jump chaplain. If you're going to Deep Strike and Heroic Intervention, leave him separate from the unit, because they lose heroic intervention if joined by an independent character. But, if you're going to deploy them, I would throw the chaplain in. He makes them Fearless and gives more re-rolls on the charge, not to mention adds his own four power weapon attacks. The reason I'd push for making them Fearless is for Weaken Resolve and Fear of the Darkness. I can't imagine how disheartening it would be to see my 800 point doom unit get reduced to Ld 2 by IG psykers, and then either fall back from morale or get pinned by snipers, or see that unit fail a Ld 7 Morale Check from Fear of the Darkness and run. If they HI into combat the turn they show up, this won't be a problem. But if they deploy, then it might. If you put the chaplain with them if they're deployed, or join the chaplain to them ASAP after they arrive, you can ignore near any kind of effect that might make them run.

[Asif Chaudhry]

id just take shrike and infiltrate with them and assault turn 1. The rest of the army would be something like just adding in as much shooting as possble

like

shrike-195

ur rediculous unit- 760

(so 955)

5x tactical squads, combi melta, razorback with plas/las= 175 ea or 875
2x dreads with auto cannons= 125ea or 250
3x preds with auto cannons heavy bolters= 85e or 255
2x speeders with mm/hflamer=70easo 140 total

total is 1475 so add in 25 to something

idea is to get at least 1 solid shooting turn while ur opponent focuses on the dumb unit. and they do assault first turn in this list with the whole fleet and infiltrate and jpack things.

anyway have fun, that was my list help for the day

Thanks for the help EZ!

It's a pretty funny idea actually - and by using a command squad instead of a Vanguard squad, I could attach that Apothecary for "Feel no Pain". They wouldn't have jump packs (except for Shrike), but between infiltrate and fleet, they should be able to get into HtH on their first turn.

I'll have to give Shrike some thought - he's actually pretty good for an all-assaulty force, though I suspect the new Blood Angels trump him.

-Asif

[Asif Chaudhry]

Can someone clarify this for me or point me at a ruling? Essentially, we know Troops = Scoring. Does it follow that something that counts as Scoring = Troops?

No, they do not count as troops.

Using Pedro's Chapter Tactics gives you the potential for 9 scoring units on the field.
However, the whole thing with Chapter Tactics thing is that you can only use one special character's Chapter Tactics in a battle.

So, you could not use both Vulkan's and Pedro's Chapter Tactics.

Thanks Dakkar (and Eric) - that's what I thought the deal was with "Troops" vs "are a scoring unit".

Also, I figured out that Pedro and Vulkan don't mix - however, Pedro's "+1 attack" special makes him a not bad alternative to Vulkan, if I should ever go heavy on assault and give up the Melta/Flamer advantage. The fact that he can get an Honour Guard unit is also nice.

At the end of the day though, I think I'll stick with Salamanders and White Scars for now (one is made up of 80's/90's Rogue Trader models, the other has my "modern" models), since I love the fluff of those two chapters most.

But I think I might collect some of these other special characters, for those once in a while "surprise" builds to keep my local game scene guessing.

[Asif Chaudhry]

Hey reegsk, thanks for the reply - some great stuff below! My replies are in-line:

Speaking more to the original topic, about the Vanguard Vets, I have to say that it's a unit I wouldn't want to face either, but that's more in my army design than anything else. (snip bucket o dice theory that confirms my original fears)

By "my army design", you mean you tend to make forces that do NOT throw buckets of dice, and thus would have a hard time dealing with such an uber unit, correct? Or did you mean something else?

Good targets for this unit, IMHO, would be Nobs (you'll take some casualties, but still annihilate the enemy), walkers, nearly any space marine unit save for death company and khorne berserkers (due to number of attacks and WS5), and, of course, units of vehicles that aren't AV14 all around. They would be especially good against plague marines, the bane of many an assault unit's existence.

Huh - would have thought I should stay away from Nobs mobz (unless your area uses smaller mobs?) The ork players around here tend to take big mobs of them - hence, my desire to have as many twin linked flamers and heavy flamers in my army as possible.

Heroic Intervention would be your best bet in most circumstances. If you find yourself against an all-mounted assault army, then I would deploy them because they won't take a lot of long-range fire. Otherwise, Deep Strike with Heroic Intervention to minimize their exposure. This will do two things: one, they can get into the fight right away and start earning their points back, and two, after they assault and slaughter a unit, your opponent will freak out and focus fire on them, like as not ignoring the rest of your army. I would second the idea of a drop pod in this army, maybe two, both with Locator Beacons, and strike them in right near choice Heroic Intervention targets. Actually, if you're rolling with Vulkan, maybe take a Sternguard Vet squad, ten strong, five combi-flamers and five combi-meltas, and then you can choose whether to combat squad out of the drop pod, with the flamers going after things like IG command squads/heavy weapon squads or devastators, and the meltas hunting vehicles or heavy infantry (Vulkan gives twin-linked to flamers too, right?). And if your opponent knows about the doom of assault veterans that's coming, he'll probably shoot up your drop pods, which is fire that's not being directed at the rest of your army. Bonus -- whatever comes out of the drop pods may also distract your opponent from firing at the vanguard vets when they first arrive.

Wow - some good stuff there. Never even occurred to me to take a 10 man squad of Sternguard and drop pod them in. I hadn't realized I could choose my combat squad set up at that time like that. And yes, Vulkan twin links all flamers/Heavy Flamers/meltaguns/Multimeltas in your army.

Well, since there are no '80's drop pods that were made, guess I'll have to dirty up my "old style" army with more than just Vulkan He'stan. Guess that's okay - my goal is to use old models for whatever I can, and use the minimum of new models.

As to my opponent knowing that they are coming - he probably would, since people show each other their army lists before playing, right? Or do you not have to reveal reserves/deep strikers until they actually show up?

Oh, and lastly, I would also second the jump chaplain. If you're going to Deep Strike and Heroic Intervention, leave him separate from the unit, because they lose heroic intervention if joined by an independent character. But, if you're going to deploy them, I would throw the chaplain in. He makes them Fearless and gives more re-rolls on the charge, not to mention adds his own four power weapon attacks. The reason I'd push for making them Fearless is for Weaken Resolve and Fear of the Darkness. I can't imagine how disheartening it would be to see my 800 point doom unit get reduced to Ld 2 by IG psykers, and then either fall back from morale or get pinned by snipers, or see that unit fail a Ld 7 Morale Check from Fear of the Darkness and run. If they HI into combat the turn they show up, this won't be a problem. But if they deploy, then it might. If you put the chaplain with them if they're deployed, or join the chaplain to them ASAP after they arrive, you can ignore near any kind of effect that might make them run.

Huh - more really good stuff. Hadn't even taken morale effects into consideration. Guess I got too caught up with "their Space marines - they know no fear!"

Thanks much - you've given me a lot to think about! I think I'm going to try and point up some lists and post it up for people to look at and see what they think.

-Asif