If you have seen/read the new BA dex

[Ironhide]

All I know is that Death Co. were free and fluffy last edition, and now they are helluva expensive. For being so expensive I'd expect them to be able to hold their own against a Nob Biker unit or Seer Council on Jetbikes.

[EZ mac]

All I know is that Death Co. were free and fluffy last edition, and now they are helluva expensive. For being so expensive I'd expect them to be able to hold their own against a Nob Biker unit or Seer Council on Jetbikes.

Last ed they were 30piints, 5points for jpack. If you baught a unit it added the cost into it already. I think a tact squad with rhino was about 290 points or something.

[Ironhide]

I'm referring to the last actual codex. Not the sidebar that was in the 2 White Dwarfs.

[mrrshann618]

They are simply going back to the 2nd ed roots where DC had to be purchased.
No more free troops, if you want to use em, then you pay for em.

[Ironhide]

Unfortunately, I don't remember them being that expensive in second edition.

[reegsk]

Ironhide -- Well, they did used to be free with the 3rd Ed 'dex. The only problem back then was, if you wanted a large death company, you needed to take a lot of small units of regular marines. The common build was two chappies (for 2d3+6 DCo right off the bat), 6 x five-man tac squads, and, occasionally, three 5-man dev squads with no heavy weapons, and as many furiosos as you could fit. The DCo got free jump packs if the Chappie leading them had a jump pack, they had FNP and Fearless, and if a Sarge got pulled from the squad, he got a free power fist or power weapon. Most often, you'd see a cloud of Death Company led by a pair of chaplains, and then a handful of tac marines with no special or heavy weapons huddling together for warmth. Since you could jump from combat to combat, though, the list would own. It was hard to take out that many death company models, not to mention the dreads, and they would just rip everything apart. That wouldn't really work in 5th, as your opponent could just take out your other troops and the game was at least a draw. Not to mention that, since you can't just bounce from combat to combat, they would assault and kill a unit, then get shot by everything your opponent had. I would agree that they're very expensive in their latest incarnation, but they're actually balanced for their abilities.

EZ -- True, the command squad could belt out a similar number of wounds if joined by a character. . .but it's a unit of five models. Ignoring the character for now, it could be wiped out by five plasmagun hits, or one plasma cannon shot. And they're lower WS (except for the blood champ and any character that joins them). On top of that, when they get into combat, the character can be picked off by a dude with a powerfist or power claw. You could suicide a death company into, well, anything, and have their "character", Lemartes, be last man standing.

You're also comparing a 10-man death company to a 5-man tac squad. For a direct comparison, look at it this way. . .

Command Squad -- 325
-- 5 x Melta shots
-- 16 x WS 4 Power Weapon Attacks on the Charge, 4 x WS5 Power Weapon Attacks on the Charge
-- Furious Charge and FNP

Death Company -- 5 x Models w/Jump Packs (175), 5 x Power Weapons (75), 1 x Infernus Pistol (15) = 265 (60 points cheaper)
-- 1 x Melta shot, 4 x Bolt Pistol Shots
-- 20 x WS 5 Power Weapon Attacks on the Charge
-- Furious Charge, FNP, Fearless

The advantages/disadvantages of the command squad -- more melta shots, but can lose Furious Charge/FNP with death of Sanguinary Novitiate, Can lose bonus attack from Chapter Banner with death of standard bearer, majority of models are WS4

Advantages/Disadvantages of Death Company -- More attacks base, all WS5, can never lose Furious Charge or FNP, Fearless, Cheaper, but subject to Rage and fewer Melta shots

Adding a Librarian with a Jump Pack is 125 points, 175 if he's an Epistolary, or a jump chaplain is 125. Adding Lemartes is 150 points. So, if you add a regular librarian or chaplain with a pack, the command squad goes to 450 points. Add Lemartes, the Death Company is still cheaper at 415. Sure, the command squad can now gain Preferred Enemy or Liturgies of Blood, but the Death Company re-roll hits and wounds on the charge. And Lemartes can't be singled out in combat. The chaplain or librarian can. Lemartes has the same number of attacks as a regular chaplain or librarian, and can go crazy. He's higher Initiative than a regular chaplain or librarian.

There's a chance that the honor guard will lose it's banner, sanguinary novitiate, or blood champion before you ever hit combat. The likelihood of losing the one special model, lemartes, is pretty low unless the entire unit gets wiped out anyway. Losing one of those three models in an honor guard will either lose you +1A, Furious Charge and FNP, or your one WS5 model in the entire unit.

The one weakness DC has when compared to any other assault unit is the fact that it's subject to Rage, which you can easily get around by placing them in a transport (most preferrably a Raider or Stormraven, or Drop Pod), and their cost, but compared to other nasty CC units, they're not really that expensive. Just don't overload them with gear. If you give them a 15 point jump pack and a 15 point power weapon, yes, they're ridiculously expensive. So, instead, give them a 15 point power weapon and put them in a rhino, drop pod or Raider. Once they get into the thick of the enemy lines, Rage really isn't so bad, especially with Furious Charge and at least one power fist. I can't tell you the number of times that a single nob with a klaw has ended my Land Raider. Death Company are disgusting if you can simply figure out how to use them properly.

[EZ mac]

go take a look here and try to argue ur point here

http://www.yesthetruthhurts.com/2010/04 ... roops.html
(caution there may be cursing)

the reason the unit is NOT worth taking is it costs far too many points for something nearly every other entry does, kill troops.

You litterally are wrapping 1/4 of ur points in a 2k build up in 1x 11man unit.

They have extremly little do say about tanks, arm 13 dreds, and esspecially LR's.

All of the possible killing you can do is far outweighed by the cost of this unit.

[EZ mac]

Oh And 150 points for 10jump packs seems like less points then 250 for a landraider or 200 for a SR . But you know I suck at math.

Also please let mm tell you how much it sucks not having a melta gun and hoping a nob kills the LR you desperately need to die.

[EZ mac]

Oh and my honor guard was trully an extreme build (which is why I said "wow that's expensive" next to my math. I would never (outside of forgetting 1/2 my minis) ever load a unit to that extreme but because you had a unit which u described (10-15 man lemartes led unit with 1fist and a sprinkle of pow weps) I was trying to see what I could do within the same points.

I could by all means just give them jpacks, 2pow weps, and 2mgs and make them efficient but then I'd have points to take 2 of the units. And blowing all my points as fast as possible seems to be the name of ur arguement here.

[reegsk]

Well, if a blog says Death Company aren't worth their points, then I concede. I can't argue with a blog post that represents one single opinion. You win, sir. Clearly it's what you wanted to hear.

[MagickalMemories]

go take a look here and try to argue ur point here

http://www.yesthetruthhurts.com/2010/04 ... roops.html
(caution there may be cursing)

With all due respect to Stelek, he definitely knows his way around a codex, but his builds are not as "all powerful" as they are made to seem.
He seems to build his lists in a bubble and focus them to combat certain kinds of opponents. His lists tend to fall apart against opponents that do not fit within that bubble.
There were many reports of "YTTH lists" at Adepticon this year which failed miserably when faced with a match-up they were not geared to handle. "All comers" armies fared far better.

I'm not taking EITHER side on the disagreement, as I haven't so much as picked up the codex yet. I'm just pointing out a relatively well known fact (the "anti-Stelek" groups, in fact, seem to relish those points).

Also, it's not unheard of for people trying to "argue their point" on Stelek's blog to not have their posts published. I don't know the reasoning, but there HAVE been those accusations.

Eric

[edit] @reegsk.
Don't do that. Please, be above it.

[Ironhide]

Also, it's not unheard of for people trying to "argue their point" on Stelek's blog to not have their posts published. I don't know the reasoning, but there HAVE been those accusations.

Eric

Yeah, I've heard that Stelek tends to weed out the negative posts that show how weak his builds are.

[MagickalMemories]

I don't frequent his blog, so I am STRICTLY regurgitating information here:

My understanding is that the stronger arguments get dumped while the weaker ones are allowed to post and are refuted "Successfully."

To reiterate, I have no personal knowledge of that fact. All I know is that those accusations have been leveled.
In the past, when he was a member of dakkadakka.com, people brought that up to him and he usually had other reasons they weren't posted (excessively rude or derisive, etc.).

Eric

[Ironhide]

Yep. I'm on the same page with you there. He comes off as not liking the people who can successfully refute his logic. Sounds like he's got an ego problem.

EDIT: He was banned permanently from DakkaDakka. Here is a thread on him: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/po ... age#817202

[EZ mac]

Well, if a blog says Death Company aren't worth their points, then I concede. I can't argue with a blog post that represents one single opinion. You win, sir. Clearly it's what you wanted to hear.

listen bud in an argument it does not help anyone when u throw your hands up and act like a 2year old.

I honostly want to like the death company but your arguments do not do this. This is because EVERYTHING in the codex can do what you describe (kill infantry) but will cost a bunch of points less. Yes they will loose out on some aspects of DC cool rules but they perform similarly.

Please post up either your army roster/list with the DC pointed out. Even just have the DC pointed out and describe what else you will take. Having this will make it much easier to figure out how YOU would use it. I ask this because you have had several different dc builds and I'm trying to get a acurate point to wound caused thingy.


@ironhide/ mm-
yeah perty sure he might not post some comments, no clue why. But it is his blog so can't really blame him I guess.* Shrug*

as for his lists... I personally like his site because he helps streamline lists by cutting off the fat from a list. I look at how he makes a list and then look at my own and go "huh makes sense to drop this or change that, and why did I take that? Must have been drunk taking that unit or upgrade...". He tends to have good reasons for taking X over Y or Z and his list creation will generally be much more focused then the average Joe.

All in all his lists are more to help budding list builders then to write the best most extreme thing you can do (with the exception of 'ard boyz lists).

You can build a list to beat any list... Might be cruddy pairings or bad luck, mission or just stupidity but his lists do work a lot of the time.