Am I a monster? Measurement Rules!- Guys some help?

[Brian Adair]

Okay folks,

I had a few games this weekend and some measurement issues came up and I was wondering everyones opinion on how they work- I think my opponent and I were delving into some grey areas of the rules but here goes.

Question 1:
I cast Tempest and create the anti jump pack 24 inch bubble around my rune priest, my opponent maintains he can measure to find out where the 24 inch bubble is so he doesnt fly into it. I read the rules on pg 3 of movement (relevant other pages are 5 and 11 as well I think) and it seems you can only measure once the unit has actually moved to test for the area effect- not before. So I move, then I pull out my tape measure and check the distance, then move onto the next unit. Now it seemed to me, he could have moved a different unit first (like a skimmer) that he knew was outside the 24 inch bubble but still test for the effect and get a measurement to guage his other unit. Is he able to measure before he moves?

Question 2
So this brought up another instance of measurement, am I a poor sport, if I shoot a unit of long fangs first and measure to guage distance to a unit, so I can use that knowledge to affect a unit which will shoot later in the round that is in front of the long fangs? For example, I have a unit of grey hunters with a plasmagun, then several inches back I have a long fang unit. I shoot the ML's and know they are in 48 inch range, but I want to see how far they are from the target, I measure and they are 26 inches away. I shoot. Now, the grey hunter squad in front I approximate to be 3-4 inches closer to the enemy, so now I can use that knowledge that most likely the plasmagun is in range. Is this acceptable practice? Now, I am not asking if I can hold the tape measure up for 5 minutes while I look at it with regards to the grey hunters or measure from the long fangs to the grey hunters, all I am asking is if it is acceptable to make a measurement you know you will pass in order to give another unit a bit of shooting information.

Question 3
So while my friend was blasting me for being a rules lawyer and telling me folks like me break the game and that is what is wrong with the hobby, I was thinking about the game we played. I noticed he moved his guants first, then when he was done moving his guants, he would measure the last one to his venomthrope to make sure they were inside the 6" to get the cover save. If he was too far away he would simply adjust the last guant and move on. Therefore he was moving his units at maximum distance each turn and still getting his cover save. You can apply the same rule to Avatar's and their fearless bubble, or Ork Mechs and their cover save bubble, or SW and storm caller- all sorts- do you get to measure those distances to ensure that every unit you want to have the effect gets it, no questions asked. I didn't bring this up because frankly I didn't care, until he started blasting me.

Anyhow, I would really really appreciate any and all comments, I have really enjoyed the last few discussions we have had.

In my opinion, it really doesn't matter as long as each player is playing by the same rules. However, I would like some definitive rules or at least opinions to back me up. If you can, please comment on each question.

Thanks.

[don_mondo]

Yes, Brian, having met you I can indeed say taht you are a monster............

1. You may indeed pre-measure your move, page 11, main rulebook. However, that does not (IMO) grant permission to measure the Area of Effect for Tempest. So he can measure from his models to possible movement locations all he wants, but he cannot measure from your model at all.

2. Nope, perfectly legitimate.

3. Again, you can pre-measure your move but not the others. You move too far and move out of range, tough.

[Brian Adair]

Don,

Are you sure and would others agree? Thanks for the response.

Brian

[reegsk]

I'm 100% in agreement with Don. You are allowed to pre-measure the distance a unit can move in any direction. This is after you have declared what type of movement they will use (so you have to declare how fast a vehicle is moving, whether a jump infantry unit is walking or flying, a bike unit is moving normally or turbo-boosting, etc.). You cannot pre-measure anything else in the game. That's the point, to keep you guessing. With something like Stormcaller, you would only measure when it may possibly take effect. For example, if a jump infantry unit that may be within 24" at the start of their move wants to use their jump packs, you measure. If a jump infantry unit ends their move and may be within 24", you measure after they're done moving. You can't measure the radius and then determine where you're going to place your unit. I wouldn't even measure the radius when the psychic power went off. You only measure it when it has a reasonable chance of taking effect.

For number two, that's perfectly acceptable. Whenever you fire a weapon, you always have the right to roll out the tape measure.

Number three, again, in total agreement. Moving a unit and immediately measuring to make sure it's within a certain range is cheating. You only need to measure the area of effect of something like that when it actually takes effect. If you have a mek with a kustom force field, you only measure to see what's in range when nearby friendlies get shot up.

[don_mondo]

Don,

Are you sure and would others agree? Thanks for the response.

Brian

Brian, you know me, I'm always sure. not always right, but I'm always sure . However, on these ones, I'm also pretty sure I'm correct.

[Brian Adair]

Thanks for the response, but I need weight of numbers- EZ, Ironhide, MM cast your votes please

[JohnHwangBT]

1. I'm not familiar with Tempest, but if it's a 24" area effect, then it seems reasonable for him to know the boundary point, unlike Veil which is variable.

2. Totally legit.

3. Nope, no good. You can measure to see how far you can move, but not how far away you are. If he does this, measure your Rapid Fire weapons to check range at 12", and see how he likes it...

[Asif Chaudhry]

Hey Brian,

I'm not one of the esteemed members you called out like MM, P, or IH, but I just wanted to throw my 2 cents out.

I believe Don is correct when he states what the legal rules are.

However, from a sporting point of view, I've always had a problem with your #2 action, having seen players do it many times.

When someone says, "I want to shoot my 48" range weapon" at some unit that is CLEARLY within 4 feet, but whips out the tape measure, they are OBVIOUSLY trying to get some kind of idea of ranges for other models in their army to the (clearly within range of 1st weapon) target they selected. Which seems against the spirit of the rules of "declare your fire without measuring, THEN measure."

Some would say that the player in question is being "smart" or "tactical", but to me, that is just gaming the rules to get an advantage that they should not have.

Our game group, we've tried having all units allocate fire to designated targets and THEN measure - the notion that you could selectively fire 1 unit at a time at something until it is dead, seemed counter-intuitive to us, and made some shooty armies (like Tau and IG) significantly rough to fight against. The idea seemed to have some merit, but in some cases, made HtH armies with a big nasty (like Tyranids with several Carnifexes) really rough - you rolled poorly for 1 unit at the wrong time, and your whole battle line could get crunched. So we are still undecided on that.

Our basic rule of thumb is "measure if it seems close." No measuring for a 72" Rail gun against a model 10" away, to check and see if your supporting troops nearby can shoot. Like wise, no measuring for 12" meltaguns against someone clearly 3 feet away, just to check for potential charge ranges for your assault squad standing nearby.

But like Don said - you're allowed to measure by rule, so if you need that crutch to win , by all means, you are 100% allowed to.

[MagickalMemories]

In agreement with those above with an addendum... On #3, your buddy was definitely cheating. Accidentally, I'm sure, but cheating.
What WOULD have been fair, however, would be to move all but ONE. Then, measure the distance from the second to last one to the venomthrope. That guy's 8" from the 'Thrope? no prob. He knows he needs this last guy to be about 2" from the previous one, so taht he makes the "bubble."

It's perfectly legal, because you did not move one, measure, then move it back (double move).

Eric

[Brian Adair]

Asif,

I hope you weren't offended, I just rattled off some names of people who contributed to my first few rules question debates, I am happy to hear your "voice". I agree that the spirit of the game would suggest firing the Railgun 24" inches away and measuring feels kind of "dirty" but by the same token, however, I think there are several situations where it would be totally fine, especially if you don't hold the tape measure out for very long and just get a brief glimpse. Personally, I dont think it really matters much as long as both players play it the same way- I mean 90% of the time most people can accurately determine if their guns can shoot anyways.

@MM - I don't think you can ever just measure from one unit to another, that was the point, not the double move, but the measuring from one unit to another.

Just my thoughts. Thanks for your contributions.

Brian

[Ironhide]

Gotta go with the majority on this one. Will add this though, don't forget about guess range/indirect fire weapons. If memory serves, their targets must be chosen before any measuring.

Gotta go with MM on the last minute positioning of the gaunts. Sounds like a little cheating to me. I always play it like chess; once you move the model and take your hand off it, then it's done. No more moving.

[mrrshann618]

I concur with those prior.

Personal addendum I let people measure for things such as coherancy when it involves the same unit, but not when dealing with two separate units. Thats right If you do not move your IC intelligently I'm going to railgun his head from his shoulders

Ironhide is right, you have to place the template first then measure to see if the template is in range.

[locust]

Don,

Are you sure and would others agree? Thanks for the response.

Brian

I can agree with Don whole-heatedly on this.

In agreement with those above with an addendum... On #3, your buddy was definitely cheating. Accidentally, I'm sure, but cheating.
What WOULD have been fair, however, would be to move all but ONE. Then, measure the distance from the second to last one to the venomthrope. That guy's 8" from the 'Thrope? no prob. He knows he needs this last guy to be about 2" from the previous one, so taht he makes the "bubble."

It's perfectly legal, because you did not move one, measure, then move it back (double move).

Eric

I can also say that this is a fair statement and how I generally treat stuff like this. Cause it happens.

[Asif Chaudhry]

Asif,

I hope you weren't offended, I just rattled off some names of people who contributed to my first few rules question debates, I am happy to hear your "voice".

Nah, no offense. I was just ribbing you - should have put a smiley face on that line.

I agree that the spirit of the game would suggest firing the Railgun 24" inches away and measuring feels kind of "dirty" but by the same token, however, I think there are several situations where it would be totally fine, especially if you don't hold the tape measure out for very long and just get a brief glimpse. Personally, I dont think it really matters much as long as both players play it the same way- I mean 90% of the time most people can accurately determine if their guns can shoot anyways.

I concur that as long as both players are aware and play in the same way, it's a non-issue.

However, I am curious - which situations exist where it's okay to whip out a tape measure to "check to see if I'm in range" for a weapon that is clearly in/out of range? I'm not asking to be a douche - I'm honestly intrigued at your statement since it kind of stumps me. Here in upstate NY, unless it is for a "corner-to-corner" shot on a 4'x6' table, most of our gamers instantly call "shenanigans!" if someone tries to measure a Lascannon/ML/Rail Gun/Basilisk Earthshaker shot at something that is OBVIOUSLY in range.

Let's just use the obvious one of a Heavy weapon with a 48-72" range. When in a game do you think it would be "totally fine" to pull out a tape measure and say to your opponent "I'm shooting at this unit - I'm now measuring to check range" when it is CLEARLY the case that your weapon can reach?

[reegsk]

Asif, I would agree that measuring when something is clearly in or out of range is shenanigans, but it's legal by the rules. Would I do it in a friendly game, or even a tourney game? No. Ardboyz? Absolutely! It's cheese, but it's legal cheese. You can't necessarily fault someone for doing it. Then again, if they're wipping out the ol' tape measure to check range when they're firing a lascannon at a target eighteen inches away, and they leave the tape measure up there for more than about a second, it's obvious they're not checking range and you could definitely call them on it.