40K Wound Allocation in 5th Ed

[iPAINTminis]

Okay back for more help here.

So I got in a rather confusing game this weekend with the Templar Marines list I configured (with lots of Btown help - thanks guys) and ran the list through the LGS owner which he said was fine and would work with any tournemant he would organize (big bonus there). Any way, so I get in a game with not so experienced (like I'm a veteran...player at any rate) college age kid, and ran into some confusion concerning wound allocation with 5th edition rules.

My understanding of the rules is that with Wound Allocation, you have the freedom to allocate wounds to individual models based on how diverse the unit taking the wounds is. For instance, I have one tactical squad with the following make up: SGT (PF/PP), ML, Melta, 7 x bolters.

The scenario was as follows: 4 Different troops. He got 8 hits, and 5 wounds (1 plasma, 4 bolter). I went to assign wounds. 1 x bolter to SGT, 1 x plasma to ML, 1 x bolter to ML, 1 x bolter to Melta, 1 x bolter to Bolter. Then I went to roll the wounds seperately...this is where the debate kicked in.

My understanding of the rules (and I'm no rules expert seeing as how I primarily play with my kids and have to...adjust the rules for their understanding), but my understanding is...

1) Assign the wounds
2) Roll saves on assigned wounds separately, per model. So if my ML had 2 wounds assigned to him I'd roll 2 dice for those wounds. SGT has 1 wound, roll 1 die for his wound separately.
3) Each model should roll armor saves separately

So in my situation above, I understood that in rolling my saves separately I failed only 1 save so would have only lost a single model. Doing it his way I failed 4, so would have lost 4 models.

LGS manager sided with me, but the budding young college mind (no offense to you college-age and younger) spent the next 20 min of my patience complaining to the point that his language became an issue for my 4 and 9 year old who were with me so we called it quits.

Help me out Btowners,

As always, appreciate the input.

[don_mondo]

Dakkar, note that in his scenario the unit is down to 4 models............. Least, that's what I'm assuming the 4 different troops bit meant. If not, then he did it wrong as he put two on the ML before giving everyone a first wound.

My understanding of the rules is that with Wound Allocation, you have the freedom to allocate wounds to individual models based on how diverse the unit taking the wounds is. For instance, I have one tactical squad with the following make up: SGT (PF/PP), ML, Melta, 7 x bolters.

The scenario was as follows: 4 Different troops. He got 8 hits, and 5 wounds (1 plasma, 4 bolter). I went to assign wounds. 1 x bolter to SGT, 1 x plasma to ML, 1 x bolter to ML, 1 x bolter to Melta, 1 x bolter to Bolter. Then I went to roll the wounds seperately...this is where the debate kicked in.

My understanding of the rules (and I'm no rules expert seeing as how I primarily play with my kids and have to...adjust the rules for their understanding), but my understanding is...

1) Assign the wounds
2) Roll saves on assigned wounds separately, per model. So if my ML had 2 wounds assigned to him I'd roll 2 dice for those wounds. SGT has 1 wound, roll 1 die for his wound separately.
3) Each model should roll armor saves separately

So in my situation above, I understood that in rolling my saves separately I failed only 1 save so would have only lost a single model. Doing it his way I failed 4, so would have lost 4 models.

OK, in the described scenario (assuming only four models in the unit), it looks like you did it all properly. However, your #3 is not necessarily correct. It should read, Each like group of models roll their saves together. As an example, let's say that you had 6 models in the unit, same as above but with 3 x bolters, and you take 8 wounds, 2 x plasma, 6 x bolter.
Allocation:
Sgt-bolter
ML-bolter
melta-bolter
bolter-bolter
bolter-bolter, bolter
bolter-plasma, plasma

Now each group of similar models roll their saves as a group. So the sgt, being unique, takes one save, pass he lives, fail, he dies. Same for the ML and melta. But the bolter boys take 2 x plasma and 3 x bolter wounds asa group, no individually. So two die (assuming no cover) and the last has to take 3 regular saves. Now you actually could stack both plasma on the ML so that he dies and the bolter boys take regualr saves.
The key points to remember.
No model may be allocated a second wound until all models have been assigned a wound. But there is no specific order in which you have to allocate the wounds, so you can lump all the Ap2/instant death, whatever type wounds on a single unique model assuming there are enough wounds to spread it around that way.
Like models within the unit form 'sub-units' for purposes of saving throws. Wounds from one 'like group' will not carry over to any other group.

[Dakkar98]

I screwed up so I deleted and posted it again.
You almost did it right. Go to page 25 in the rulebook.

1) Assign the wounds
2) The player rolls separately for each model that stands out in gaming terms. Identical models roll together.

Against a unit with mixed equipment, it proceeds as follows.
1.) Attacking player rolls to hit, tally hits (different color dice for different weapons).
He got 8 hits (1 plasma, 7 bolters?).

2.) Attacking player rolls to wound, tally wounds (if models have different toughness, roll against majority toughness.
He got 5 wounds (1 plasma, 4 bolter).

3.) OWNING player allocates wounds as he sees fit. 1 per model until all models receive a wound, then allocate any additional wounds.
Ideally you could've allocated all 5 wounds to bolter guys. Plasma violates your armor save so who ever takes that hit automatically dies. The other 4 you roll your armor saves and you remove those that fail.
You allocated as you saw fit. The way you allocated, you automaically lose your missile launcher trooper, and had the potential to lose your sgt and melta as well.
Edit: I missed that you allocated a second hit to the ML guy, so Don and reegsk are right unless you only had those 4 remaining one of those hits should have been allocated to another bolter marine.

Now say that same squad of 10 guys took the following hits 1 plasma, 1 melta, 1 krak missile, 14 bolter hits.
Now lets say that all of those wound.
Allocation woud go as follows:
Sgt - bolter
ML - bolter
MG - bolter
B - bolterx2
B - bolterx2
B - bolterx2
B - bolterx2
B - bolterx2
B - Krak missile, bolter
B - plasma, melta

At this point you automatically remove 2 bolter marines.
You roll 10 saves at once for the remaining 5 bolter marines if you fail 5 or more you remove all 5. if you fail only 2 you only remove 2.
You roll 1 save for the sgt. If he passes he lives, if he fails he dies.
You roll 1 save for the ML. If he passes he lives, if he fails he dies.
You roll 1 save for the MG. If he passes he lives, if he fails he dies.

If you roll hot and pass all of the saves that you are allowed to make you still only remove 2 marines because you took enough hits to allocate 2 armor violating wounds to the same marine. If your 10 marines had somehow taken 21 hits instead of 17, you could have allocated all 3 armor violating hits to the same marine.

Hope that helps.

[reegsk]

Actually, unless it was a typo, you didn't properly allocate the wounds. You spread the wounds through a unit as you see fit, but you must assign one wound to each model before you can place a second wound on a model. In the example, you put two wounds on your missile launcher dude (one bolter wound, one plasma wound) before you had assigned a wound to all of the models in your squad.

Other than that, Dakkar and Don pretty much explained the rules, so there's no point in my reiterating it. At my LGS, we tend to assign wounds in groups and roll each groups' wounds together to save time. Well, it saves time unless you're playing against Orks. . .but I'll save that grumble about FNP nobs with differing equipment for another thread.

[iPAINTminis]

Thanks guys for the explanation, that furthers my understanding.

@reegsk - yeah based on the explanations I did not allocate properly, which wasn't caught by either my opponent or the LGS manager. So my bad there, though that didn't cause the disagreement, but I could definately see where it would have, but I wouldn't have argued with my opponent there as it's pretty clear I jacked my allocation up.

@Dakkar and Don - thanks for the much more clear explanation, makes more sense.

[Dakkar98]

At my LGS, we tend to assign wounds in groups and roll each groups' wounds together to save time. Well, it saves time unless you're playing against Orks. . .but I'll save that grumble about FNP nobs with differing equipment for another thread.

For my son's Tyranid army I encouraged him to have each of his warriors and raveners armed differently so they could benefit from their multiple wounds.
9 TW: 1 w/ ST+VC, 1 w/ ST+DS, 1 w/ ST+SF, 1w/ ST+FB, 1 w/ ST+D, 1 w/ RC+DS, 1 w/ RC+SF, 1w/ RC+FB, 1 w/ RC+D
6 R: 1 w/ ST+DS, 1w/ ST+SF, 1 w/ ST+D, 1 w/ RC+DS, 1w/ RC+SF, 1 w/ RC+D
He had multiple warriors who could take a wound and keep on fighting. the enemy would have to inflict a second wound to the same model before he had to remove any.

The release of the new codex canned that, and caused us to have to "rearm" some of his warriors.
Now we have:
9 TW: 1 w/ ST+VC, 8 w/ ST+D
9 R: 9 w/ ST+D

It's odd that Nobs can still do it but 'Nids can't. They will probably fix that in the next Ork codex.

[reegsk]

By the gods, I hope so! It takes minutes to simply allocate and roll saves each time the nob squad takes wounds, and it takes forever to kill them. Thankfully Furioso Dreads won't have that problem. . .

[Dez]

I think they did it on purpose, and will leave it that way. Orks don't have much in the way of Survivability other than relying on Wound Allocation. It costs a ton of points to be able to do so!

reegsk...you had better watch out! Nob Squads are coming for you! Now where did all those bike parts go....

[reegsk]

Yes, yes, Dez, and those Nobz will just insta-die to hordes of Vindicator shots. May 15th, punk!