Round two: Iron Priest and Repairing Vehicles

[Brian Adair]

Alright, I do not have my codex handy so my wording might not be exact- if I make some mistakes please correct me.

In the SW codex it states that Iron Priests can attempt to make repairs on a vehicle if they are in base to base contact during the movement or shooting phase (irrelevant which one for this discussion). So, if an Iron Priest is inside a vehicle can he make repairs? I mean he isn't in base to base contact by strict RAW interpretation but he is, isn't he?

I mean Scotty never had to leave the engine room to repair the Enterprise on any episode I have seen-sure every once in awhile he had to access some ducts but he was inside the ship.

Perhaps there isn't any true answer to this question (RAW vs. RAI) however, I am interested in how people play it.

Thoughts?

[Norseman]

Well, I am a little drawn on this.

If you think about it the IP would have to go outside the vehicle to access the damage and get to the thrown tracks to link them together. In this way i think you would actually have to be outside and expose yourself to enemy fire.

However the little grots for orks and some vehicles can auto repair, so in this way I cant see why an IP couldn't do the same.

I the end, I would allow the IP to repair from inside just like the other vehicles.

[MagickalMemories]

I know it's not the same rule as the oneds quoted, but based on precedence (if nothing else), I'd say he COULD use it while embarked. I mean, the unit (model) HAS to be in contact with the vehicle, if he's standing/sitting INSIDE of it. Yes?

Precendence:

Q. Can a model use a psychic power that is not a
Psychic Shooting Attack if it is embarked in a
transport vehicle?
A. Yes. If the power requires line of sight, this is
still worked out from the vehicle’s fire points
(this will count as one model shooting through
that fire point if the power is used in the
Shooting phase).
If the psychic power does not require line of sight
and has a range or an area of effect that is
normally measured from the model using it, these
are measured from the vehicle’s hull, as
explained in the Embarking section on page 66.

Also:

Q. Can Psychic powers be used on a unit
embarked on a transport?
A. For simplicity’s sake, the answer has to be a
firm ‘No, unless the psyker himself is in the unit
being transported’.[/quote]

Operative text emboldened.


Eric

[Ironhide]

No. Embarked is not the same as "base contact". Looking at it realistically, how would he be able to repair a damaged transport from the inside? Can you repair a tire, or car engine, from sitting in the the passenger seat?

[MagickalMemories]

No. Embarked is not the same as "base contact". Looking at it realistically, how would he be able to repair a damaged transport from the inside? Can you repair a tire, or car engine, from sitting in the the passenger seat?

Depends on what's broken.

I mean, if we want to take realistic spins on it, we could always say it's possible that the vehicle's weapon was destroyed by a shot that penetrated the armor and damaged an internal gear or motor.
A vehicle could be immobilized due to some similar damage on an internal system. Could be that the tracks are just fine.

Additionally, the codex clearly gives two circumstances under which the IP can NOT repair the vehicle (if he's gone to ground or falling back). Why wouldn't they include embarked there, if they didn't intend it?

I would love to see some better precedence (in favor of OR against it) than what I provided, however.
Anyone have anything on the similar abilities of a Techpriest Engineseer or Techmarine?

Eric

[EZ mac]

As the rule book says that u are counted as on the board for all aspects while in a transport (besides being able to be targeted by ranged or magic attacks) then yes u will be base 2base contact as u occupy the same space.

As Kevin from privateer press said "fluff does not = rules" and so a flat tire is somehow repairable from the inside, just like a lot of 40k, think of the dude getting out with a Jack and fixing it between u rolling for it.

[govannon]

No. Embarked is not the same as "base contact". Looking at it realistically, how would he be able to repair a damaged transport from the inside? Can you repair a tire, or car engine, from sitting in the the passenger seat?

OK....realistically, what on the outside of a tank could somebody fix within the few minutes that a turn represents? If you look at it realistically, most any damage done to a tank would take it out for a longer period of time that what a whole game represents.

I don't see anything in the rules that would stop him from trying to repair it. Base to base means the models are touching. He has to be touching if he is inside.

[mrrshann618]

Well not saying that this is going to change anything

Vehicle can move 12", unit can get out and fire
Vehicle can move 12", unit stays inside vehicle and cannot fire

This is a pefrect example where a unit MUST get out in order to perform an action Even though there are fire points in the vehicle alowing the ability to shoot out otherwise. The difference being is that for game balance the unit must subject themselves to being able to be shot at in order to shoot.

AS for the mechanic, it says base to base. We can sit all day arguing if embarked means base to base or not. It never really specifies what embarked implies. Yes we can use "common sense" to state that in order to be embarked he must be base to base, however GW is not all the clear as to the relationship of the embarked unit. If they were, there would not have been a huge problem with the Doom's special ability.

Common sense to me states that the mechanic must have room enough to fix the vechile, this generally cannot be done inside of a cramped vehicle packed full of guys. In addition the damage came from an outside source, My common sense would state that at minimum the mechanic would need to asses the damage done for fear of starting the engine backup with with potentially catatrphic results.

[Brian Adair]

Dag gum it, Scotty never had these issues with the Enterprise and the damage was usually done from an outside source (Klingon's, Romulans, massive asteriod streaking through space- although there was the episode with those hairy little round critters .. that was inside)- and we all know that Star Trek is way more factual than Warhammer 40k.

[Ironhide]

So we're saying embarked is the same as being in base contact? I guess that means if a unit of orks attack the Rhino, then they can also attack the Ironpriest, as he is also in base contact with the vehicle. Or shoot at the Ironpriest instead of the vehicle.

Base-to-base contact means that the model is literally touching the base or hull of another unit, if an Ironpriest is embarked he is literally off the table waiting to disembark from said vehicle, and thus not in literal base contact. So no, the Ironpriest cannot do it.

[EZ mac]

Please read page 66 under embarking 

If the player needs to measure a range involving the embarking unit (except for it's shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicles hull.

Base to base is a measurment correct? It is zero inches between each base yes? 
So I measure from the hull in the shooting phase to see if he is close enough to use the blessing of the omnissiah rule from the hull of the vehicle.  It is zero inches, so I am base to base with the vehicle and roll.
Nowere in the main rulebook does it describe base to base (as far as I can find) as it will always say move into base contact or the model must touch, instead it says in BOtO "if a techmarine is in base contact with a damaged vehicle during the shooting phase, he can attempt to repair it instead of firing." (sm codex, pg 71)

This is my understanding of the rule, basically that because base to base is refering to zero inches or any distance between the models that it qualifies being mounted as it specifically states that all measurements are made from the vehicles hull.

[porkuslime]

Going into some research...

GW has on it's website a bunch of FAQ's... the one for the Space Wolves, updated Jan 2010, has this to say..

Q. Can an Iron Priest attempt to use his
Battlesmith special rule to repair a vehicle he is
currently embarked upon?
A. Yes.

So, the guys what made the game suggest that he can. They ALSO say that their FAQ is the equivalent of "House Rules" so, it isn't 100% official.. more like 90% IMHO.

[Ironhide]

Please read page 66 under embarking 

If the player needs to measure a range involving the embarking unit (except for it's shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicles hull.

Base to base is a measurment correct? It is zero inches between each base yes? 
So I measure from the hull in the shooting phase to see if he is close enough to use the blessing of the omnissiah rule from the hull of the vehicle.  It is zero inches, so I am base to base with the vehicle and roll.
Nowere in the main rulebook does it describe base to base (as far as I can find) as it will always say move into base contact or the model must touch, instead it says in BOtO "if a techmarine is in base contact with a damaged vehicle during the shooting phase, he can attempt to repair it instead of firing." (sm codex, pg 71)

This is my understanding of the rule, basically that because base to base is refering to zero inches or any distance between the models that it qualifies being mounted as it specifically states that all measurements are made from the vehicles hull.

Base to base is not referring to zero inches, you are inferring that. It is saying "contact" between bases. A Techmarine, or Iron Priest, that is embarked is not within base contact with the transport because they are sitting off on the side of the table.

Anyway, doesn't matter since GW has FAQ'd it.

[EZ mac]

Please read page 66 under embarking 

If the player needs to measure a range involving the embarking unit (except for it's shooting), this range is measured to or from the vehicles hull.

Base to base is a measurment correct? It is zero inches between each base yes? 
So I measure from the hull in the shooting phase to see if he is close enough to use the blessing of the omnissiah rule from the hull of the vehicle.  It is zero inches, so I am base to base with the vehicle and roll.
Nowere in the main rulebook does it describe base to base (as far as I can find) as it will always say move into base contact or the model must touch, instead it says in BOtO "if a techmarine is in base contact with a damaged vehicle during the shooting phase, he can attempt to repair it instead of firing." (sm codex, pg 71)

This is my understanding of the rule, basically that because base to base is refering to zero inches or any distance between the models that it qualifies being mounted as it specifically states that all measurements are made from the vehicles hull.

Base to base is not referring to zero inches, you are inferring that. It is saying "contact" between bases. A Techmarine, or Iron Priest, that is embarked is not within base contact with the transport because they are sitting off on the side of the table.

Anyway, doesn't matter since GW has FAQ'd it.

please show me were it says in the main rulebook what base to base means as they will say move into contact in all the places which I saw.

And I'll bet u they used the same reasoning as my post when they did FAQ it.

[MagickalMemories]

So we're saying embarked is the same as being in base contact? I guess that means if a unit of orks attack the Rhino, then they can also attack the Ironpriest, as he is also in base contact with the vehicle. Or shoot at the Ironpriest instead of the vehicle.

No, because he is a separate unit and the rules specifically state that they must be in base to base with a unit to assault it.

No, because the rules specifically state that you cannot target units embarked in a vehicle. It's the same reason units can sit on top of an in tact building, behind the battlements, to shoot



Eric