One last question: "Counts as" or New Army

[Dakkar98]

@ EVIL INC
On no you don't want to argue, but you are. And it seems that you want to get in the last word. I didn't say that you HAD to paint your army to match the codex, what I said is if you paint your army in a specific codex color scheme, that army should use that codexes rule set. I said if you want to be able to draw from various codexes, when building your force come up with you own unique color scheme. That way your opponent says "Hey, cool color scheme. I don't recognize the chapter, which codex are you using for your army?" If they see Space Wolf colors, their mind will think they are Space Wolves. If they see Dark Angels Colors, their mind will think they are Dark Angels. If they see Black Templars colors their mind will think they are Black Templars. If they see models painted up in warlock purple and hawk turquoise, they’re going to ask what chapter are you playing, and they’ll remember it, because the paint scheme on the models is not constantly making them think that they are something different.

@ Everybody
What You See Is What You Get (WYSIWYG) refers to being able to look at a model and have a good idea of what it is supposed to represent.
If someone has a soup can with spoons sticking out of the bottom, forks sticking out of the side and a couple of heavy weapons glued onto it, I better be looking at an Ork Killa Kan, or if it’s a big soup can, a Deff Dread, but I wouldn’t accept it as a Space Marine dreadnaught accept in a game or two to test to see if it was worth investing in one.
If your opponent has a chaos dreadnaught it should be a chaos dreadnaught not a defiler. If someone custom builds a defiler out of K-nex or even Lego Bionicals to give it a go round that’s fine, but if he starts using it in every game he plays, I am going to expect him to eventually either buy a real one or at least custom build one out of more acceptable materials.
If someone is unsure as to the value of rhinos to their army and they build a cardboard rhino for every squad that they field to try it out, that’s fine, but if he starts using them in every game he plays, I am going to expect him to eventually either buy real ones or at least custom build them out of more acceptable materials.

If a sergeant is equipped with melta bombs then he should be modeled with meltabombs, even if you custom build him a meltabomb. If he is equipped with a combi-plasma he should be modeled w/ a combi-plasma, even if you custom build him a combi-plasma, etc. Now obviously if you are play testing to see if you like the melta bomb or the combi-plasma, throw one on the base, or write it on a slip of paper, or better yet magnetize your sergeant so he has a range of options. $5.00 will get you 100 1/16" magnets that will fit into the wrist of a Space Marine.
If you are not sure exactly what heavy weapons you prefer, glue the marine's legs body and head together, then lay the HW that you are testing between the models legs, so that your opponent can look at that model and say ok that Devastator has a Lascannon.
Scouts have the option for camo cloaks. The only models that have them are the sniper scouts, but on that sprue there are two little bedroll looking bits that represent a stowed camo cloak. Do I expect to see every camo cloaked scout to be converted from the sniper scouts? No. Do I expect to see them modeled with full flowing camo cloaks sculpted out of green putty? No. Do I expect to see every model have one of those bits? No, but it would be nice for them to take a little bit of toilet paper or paper towel tied up with some thread, coated with some PVA Glue, and painted black or with a little camo pattern and put it on the model like you would the bit.

If a Space Marine has a grenade in one hand, a chainsword in its other hand, and holstered pistol on its hip, he is probably an assault marine, the pistol in his holster could be a bolt pistol or a plasma pistol. That same model painted up like a wolf guard, well now that model could be equipped with a Frost Blade, and it has counter attack and acute senses. Painted up as Blood Angels that could be a melta-pistol and it has blood rage.

I would remember that all of my opponents armless termagants are armed with devourers because he wants to play test doubling the cost of model to triple the number of shots before actually equipping them that way, while the other squad armed with fleshborers are actually armed with fleshborers.

Anyone and everyone has free reign to be as creative as they want to create a custom Space Marine Chapter, Eldar Craft World, Tau Sept, Traitor Legion, Imperial Guard Regiment, Ork Waagh!, Sisterhood, Inquisitional Force, Tyranid Hive Fleet, what have you. But, if you model Space Marines as Space Wolves and paint them up in Space Wolves Colors and play them as anything other than Space Wolves you really are going against WYSIWYG. Unless it is a specially defined chapter it should not be painted in a specific chapter’s colors.
If you paint your marines in Hello Kitty pink and last week you played them as Blood Angels and this week you want to play them as Black Templars that is fine, because they are pink I’m going to ask what codex are you using.

WYSIWYG is GW’s way of saying don’t be lazy make a conversion, get into the spirit of the hobby.

The rule that you keep referring to from the main rulebook is actually saying that if there is a RULES conflict and you cannot come to a mutual agreement, you roll off and continue the game. So if there is a question as to whether or not a model is in cover, you roll off. If there is a question as to whether or not a model can be seen, and you don't have a laser pointer, you roll off. If you think a building is supposed to give a 3+ cover save and your opponent thinks it is supposed to be a 4+ cover save, you roll off. It says don't be a Rules Lawyer and bog the game down.

That rule does NOT say that you can proxy each and every model all the time and if your opponent doesn’t agree then he is being unfair. Is does not give you free reign to be lazy.

[starslayer]

This thread is so entertaining......please dont let it end!!

[Dakkar98]

This thread is so entertaining......please dont let it end!!

Don't make me kill you!

[JohnHwangBT]

@ Everybody
What You See Is What You Get (WYSIWYG) refers to being able to look at a model and have a good idea of what it is supposed to represent.

If someone is unsure as to the value of rhinos to their army and they build a cardboard rhino for every squad that they field to try it out, that’s fine, but if he starts using them in every game he plays, I am going to expect him to eventually either buy real ones or at least custom build them out of more acceptable materials.

If a sergeant is equipped with melta bombs then he should be modeled with meltabombs, even if you custom build him a meltabomb. If he is equipped with a combi-plasma he should be modeled w/ a combi-plasma, even if you custom build him a combi-plasma, etc.

Good post, Dakkar!

I agree that the point of WYSIWYG means that models should be accurate and obvious at a glance. Deep thinking or remembering of substitutions and swaps simply shouldn't be required.

If somebody makes Rhinos out of cardstock or plasticard templates and those Rhinos are virtually identical in looks to the official models, of correct size, proportion, and detailing, then I'd be OK with them. OTOH, if they're just 3x5x2" bricks, then yeah, I'm going to want them replaced by actual models that look like Rhinos.

And I totally agree that models should be modeled to show any optional / upgraded weapons / wargear. That's the entire point of WYSIWYG. It's a proper courtesy to one's opponent.

[Dakkar98]

If somebody makes Rhinos out of cardstock or plasticard templates and those Rhinos are virtually identical in looks to the official models, of correct size, proportion, and detailing, then I'd be OK with them.

If he went to that much trouble to hand make them, they don't even have to look like rhinos as long as they are consistent.

Anyone here play the game Crackdown. I would love to make either my assault bikes or my razorbacks look like the tank that you get to drive in that game. Same rules just different look.

ilmcrackdowngettingbusy001.jpg

Now that would be awesome to have on the field.
The closest thing that GW has come to that is the new FW Tauros, and it is a little to open.
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/taurven.htm

[JohnHwangBT]

@Dakkar: It's a little OT, but that "tank" looks a lot like the recent GI Joe "Rhino" APC.

Of course, the problem is that the GI Joe APC has a 14" x 7" footprint, so it's way bigger than a Baneblade...

[Brian Adair]

Dakkar,

I agree with some of your points but not all. Just because someone uses counts as or proxies might have nothing to do with laziness. One aspect of 40k that sets is apart from board games is the uniqueness of all the armies (and gamepieces so to speak). Some of us players don't have unlimited time in life to model and paint every army they want to play. Some of us have kids, demanding jobs, or have to travel frequently and those things certainly cut down on the time we can spend modelling or painting. Myself, well I suffer from kids, work, and being a student in a master's program- all on top of the fact that I demand perfectionism from myself when modelling- I can sit down for an hour or two an evening (which is all I get at best- most times it might be 30 minutes) and spend all that time making 3 marines. Every mould line must be removed, each imperfection filled and the model posed in a dynamic pose different from his "friends". I have been working on one army the last 3 years and you are telling me that I'm lazy- I would certainly beg to differ. Granted, others situations might be different, and I find it much simplier to just worry about myself. I just think you walk a thin line when you judge which conversions are "okay" and which colors are acceptable. When you start down that path, then you can reject people's armies because they aren't painted well enough, or they haven't removed the mould lines from the models or their theme isn't fluffy enough. I think the thing that irritates me the most is when I read people saying "I would remove Eldrad from that list, he doesn't fit the fluff", whereas my response would be "who gives a crap". I guess my overall point is as gamers we all have different priorities and standards that we apply to our games, in a tournament setting, everything goes unless specified by the tournament organizer, individually we are not in a position to put demands on anyone unless we are in the comfort of our own home or organizing a tourney. Just my two cents.

[porkuslime]

Personally, I have issues where every army has a Major Hero inside.. I just think that is a bit silly.

However, I read Dakkar98's post as more of a "If you want to play 40k, improve your army over time, please" vibe.

If you want to play with proxy poptart boxes as rhinos to see what happens, great! If your Marines are photocopies stuck on washers? Fine.. just DON"T be playing with that as an army for 3 years... I draw the line there.

Someone locally had an entire army printed on cardstock in a flat file folder.. everything was a top down 2-d image.. OK for a game or 2, but, after 6 months, no sireeebob.

-Porkuslime

[Dakkar98]

However, I read Dakkar98's post as more of a "If you want to play 40k, improve your army over time, please" vibe.

If you want to play with proxy poptart boxes as rhinos to see what happens, great! If your Marines are photocopies stuck on washers? Fine.. just DON"T be playing with that as an army for 3 years... I draw the line there.

Someone locally had an entire army printed on cardstock in a flat file folder.. everything was a top down 2-d image.. OK for a game or 2, but, after 6 months, no sireeebob.

-Porkuslime

You hit the nail on the head there. I can only take the Mountain Dew logo Drop Pods for so long before I have to at least paint it up and put some fins on it, or download the patterns and cut some foam board, or yes….(gasp!) buy one with your freakin’ cigarette money! (No offense to any non-smokers out there, all offense at any smokers, I hate you guys! I quit smoking 7 ½ years ago, and nobody hates smokers like an ex-smoker.)

Has everyone looked at the Drop Pod Thread? viewtopic.php?f=1&t=106863&hilit=Drop+Pod
If you are play testing, use the Mountain Dew Can. If you decide you like the drop pods, don't spend a lot of money, go here and do this
http://santacruzwarhammer.blogspot.com/ ... -suck.html

This hobby is too expensive to make the mistake of buying an army, coming to realize that army is not for you and then trying to start a new one. My one friend started with Dark Angels back in 2nd edition, got the notion to get Chaos, didn't like them and so got Tau and then Grey Knights, and now (after getting married and having 2 kids in addition to his 2 step kids) has settled on Blood Ravens. He was able to use a lot of his DA stuff for his BR. I traded away all of his tau stuff that I didn't want for my own Tau army, but he has a box of 2nd edition chaos stuff that I have told him "No, I'm not listing those on Btown for you", because he doesn't want to take the time to catalog it for me. He wants me to find a place in my clutter for it, catalog it and trade it for him. He bought a Forge World resin Valkyrie for the stormtroopers for his Grey Knights and is so pissed that they put it out in plastic for $58.00. He got a resin Thunderhawk from Forgeworld and he about had an aneurism when the rumor came out that they were putting that out in plastic.

I have 3 kids of my own as well, 18, 16, and 15 months, a Job, a Star Wars RPG I play in, A D&D Game I run (Oh crap, I have both games this weekend and I need to do prep work for ... for both!?! ).

The last battle I fought I had 6 landspeeders in various stages of paint and assembly and 20 headless scouts. The scouts were headless because I want them to have helmets, unfortunately my helmet of choice only comes in resin at this time, the cadian respirator heads. I just can't bring myself to spend $28.00 to get a set of 8 usable heads and a bunch of other stuff I don't need (GW, I wish you would put out plastic IG Stormtroopers).
Even though I intend to build each full company of marines using the same torso front, backpack, bolter and Mk6 head, between variation in legs and posing, no two marines in a squad will look the same. One squad may closely resemble another squad as far as the legs go (there are only so many variants), but hopefully the posing will set them apart.

I have unpainted unbuilt marines in boxes that I bought in 1993 sitting on the shelf with marines I bought last week. If all my marines would kindly remove their own mold lines, put themselves together, pull on their MK6 helmet and paint themselves, I'd have at least 4 full companies of marines. Shoot, I traded a full company of marines to my friend for his tau, and then traded what I didn't want of that for other stuff.

I have a huge Tau army and a sizable Eldar Force that I need to put themselves together as well, and then I helping my son (16) with converting his Tyranid Army. In the last year he has assembled more models for his Tyranids than I have marines since I started collecting, but I have to go behind him and clean mold lines, magnetize the flight stands for his gargoyles, magnetize the arms for his hive tyrant and his carnifexes, the list goes on.
If I could just manage to get rid of the Dark Eldar Army that I started when they first came out, I'd be down to 3 armies. Wait, I forgot that I separated my marines from my Space Wolves so 4 armies. And, If I could manage convince my wife to paint her Eldar Army in my color scheme instead of hers, then I'd be down to just 3 armies and an army that I can borrow from time to time.

Personally, I love to convert stuff. Every time I buy a conversion kit or try to create something that doesn't yet exist though, GW catches up. I tried to convert a vyper, GW puts one out, I bought resin wave serpent conversion kits, GW put it out in plastic. But, do they sell the sprue by itself? No, I have to buy a wave serpent as a complete kit when I have several Falcons between mine and my wife’s Eldar armies that just need the Wave Serpent sprue. GW finally put out the Eldar heavy weapon platform in plastic but you can only get it by buying 8 more guardians when there are about 100 guardians in my house already. In the last year I’ve picked up several Forge World Tau Battlesuits, I expect that GW will see fit to release new plastic battle suits for the Tau that duplicate or surpass quality of the resin ones.

I am foremost a collector, I have played as many games in the last few months as I have played since I got into the hobby back in the early ‘90s. When I finally place a model on the table fully painted and sealed, I want it to be a model that I can be proud of, and that someone might admire, and it is my sincere hope that my opponent (in due time) would come to love the hobby enough or be inspired enough to put the same love, attention, time and (sometimes) a little money into their models as well.

Without issue, I will play anyone, regardless of the condition or materials of their units. But, come up with something unique that doesn’t automatically draw the mind to a particular rule set, unless of course, that is their rule set.

[MagickalMemories]

I have a huge Tau army and a sizable Eldar Force that I need to put themselves together as well, and then I helping my son (16) with converting his Tyranid Army. In the last year he has assembled more models for his Tyranids than I have marines since I started collecting, but I have to go behind him and clean mold lines, magnetize the flight stands for his gargoyles, magnetize the arms for his hive tyrant and his carnifexes, the list goes on.

Do you still wipe his @ss, too? LOL
Seriously, though... You just don't seem to be looking at the equation in the right light, my friend.
I see 2 options.
1) Make him clean, magnetize, etc. his own army & spend the time you'd be doing that on your models.
2) Make him assemble your stuff---
"Look. If I'm going through all this trouble for you, I expect you to go through a little for me. Assemble these Cadians."
or
"What's that? You want the car Friday *AND* you want money for the movies? What's in it for me? How about you assemble two boxes of Cadians, snip the Space Marine bits off of these sprues and separate them into piles by piece, then put each pile into a ziploc for me?"
If he says no, tell him that he can watch TV, and walking is free.

Leverage, my friend. Leverage. LOL

Eric

[JohnHwangBT]

@Eric: that was pure comedy gold.

[Dakkar98]

@Eric
He has only lived with me a couple of years and this is someting I got him into that we can do together. He is learning ... slowly.
He doesn't have his Learner's Permit yet and doesn't seem to have a particular interest in getting it.
And the magnetizing of certain things was my idea.

I have a problem you see, it's called CDO. It's kinda like OCD, but it's alphabetical ... like it should be.

[MagickalMemories]

@Eric: that was pure comedy gold.

Reality is usually funnier than anything we can make up. : )

@Eric
He has only lived with me a couple of years and this is someting I got him into that we can do together. He is learning ... slowly.

So?
Why can't he learn a variety of different armies?
See? You're just trying to help him... guide him... teach him things...
Like how to assemble Cadians (that you just happen to need).

He doesn't have his Learner's Permit yet and doesn't seem to have a particular interest in getting it.
And the magnetizing of certain things was my idea.

There's gotta be something that you can threaten... I mean... use as levera... err... can be used as incentive for positive reinforcement of positive behaviors.

I have a problem you see, it's called CDO. It's kinda like OCD, but it's alphabetical ... like it should be.

THAT is the comedy gold, right there!

Eric

[Ironhide]

Sigged!

[Norseman]

Sad i had avoided this thread for so long...

I have the solution. I have had a LARGE SW army for a long time. I also started doing a Lamenters army (Blood angles successor) Lamenters just so happen to be Yellow and mine just so happen to have Space Wolf grey secondary coloring. My wolves are all regular space wolf grey with the yellow secondary. My tanks are all Yellow and grey. They actually look great together.

I have built a core of the army that is chapter specific, also some specials units, but I do not do to much in the way of OBVIOUS SW or Lamenter Iconography on any that I play with both like all my vehicles or dreds, also my Assault squads, are all done in matching colors that could be used with either. I am not saying that I do not have some wolf tails or some basic iconography on the generic ones but it is minimized.

This way I can save the cash on the larger portion of the army but yet still can have all the cool goodies that make each chapter special.