One last question: "Counts as" or New Army

[mrrshann618]

That means they have alpha legion and word bearers marks both on some. My chaos marines have been used to represent everything from each of the legions to many of the loyalist chapters.

That is also part of the key many of us have been talking about. Your legion is OBVIOUSLY not a specific legion/chapter therefore many of us would not have a problem. As most people have stated the problem begins to rear it's ugly head when you have a specifically painted chapter/legion that uses specifically different rules.
I, and many others, have stated that the problem lies in the ability to easily identify what army it is.

Marines, with the Space Wolf Icon, painted up as a specific Space Wolves great company = Space Wolves, and you are going to get lots of annoying questions concering "what is that unit again" when you do proxy. Proxying isn't bad, it is when you state "No this isn't a Space wolves army, it is a Black Templar Army" And it is done as a BT army more than it is as a SW army. At that point people WILL just start calling you lazy and get confused becuase people will expect SW when playing you

Marines, with no set icon or a non-cannon icon, painted up however you see fit that does not directly copy a GW cannon chapter = Your Army. You may get some clarification questions when playing however your oppponent will not have to constantly trying to remind themselves that they are not playing against what they see, they are playing against something else.

Alot of us are "dirt poor" I already mentioned my solution which sounded a heck of a lot like yours. You made your own chapter/legion that is obviously not one of the GW cannon armies. There fore there is no real chance of someone getting confused that your playing one army and not the one in front of them.

[EVIL INC]

"I, and many others, have stated that the problem lies in the ability to easily identify what army it is."
Then you would have no issues. As you would see a list of what was what and be informed what army codex was being used beforehand, you would be fully aware of what army was being used. The only possible way you would not know is if A. they purposely lied to you and told you they were playing space wolves or B. your memory span is so short you could not remember what they told you it was during the game and was too ashamed to ask again. The guys with bolters would still have bolters, the guys in termy armor would still be in termy armor and the all new guys converted up as werewolves carrying bolt pistols and hand weapons would still be death company. If you were to forget and suddenly be confused by how they are being played and call them a cheater, I am SURE your opponent would have no problems saying to you "here is my army list for you to look at, here is my codex for you to see what rules I am using for my Blood Wolves". Issue solved each time you forget. To be honest, in such situations, the onus to remember is on you to remember. Disallowing him from using his successor chapter (as the rules say he can) because of your deficiency is not fair to them or the hobby as a whole.

[porkuslime]

EVIL INC, I notice that you have had SEVERAL opportunities to respond to MagickalMemories direct question to you on the prior page of this thread, second post, and yet nothing. Did you send him a PM to answer that?

-Porkuslime

[Dakkar98]

Warning: This is going to ramble but hopefully in a good way.
Brian,
Off Topic
I am so sick of everyone's griping back and forth on this issue. Everyone seems to WANT to argue about it, whether it really affects them or not. I have a friend like that who is constantly griping about a house rule in our Star Wars RPG Game. He is benefiting from the rule and yet is opposing it. There are two players in the group that are not benefitting from it, and they have no problem with it. Some people just want to argue for the sake of hearing their own voice, or in this case, seeing their argument in print. I am going to try to address your question directly and NOT the childish and asinine argument that has sprung up around it.

Folks,

After I am finished with my SW army, I am considering moving on to a mech force. I really like the Baal Predators so I am thinking going with Blood Angels or Ravenguard. My question to you as opponents both in basement games and competitive tourney games is if I painted up everything in SW colors (just get the Baal Predator Tops etc) would anyone have problems with me playing as "counts as" or for all intents and purposes would it be better to make an 1850 mech list for Blood Angels and be done with it?

The predators would just require a Baal top
The dreads just magnetized arms

My biggest problem model wise would be using GH to represent Blood Angel Tac squads or Skyclaws as BA Assault Troops. Don't hold back on me on this one, if it would irritate you, I want to know.
Thanks.

On Topic
Brian,
I hope you find at least a little of this useful.
Don’t forget about the rules for detachments. If the battle is more than 2500 points you can have multiple detachments. As long as you meant the minimum requirements (usually 1 HQ, 2 Troops) you can field a force of SW alongside a force of BA. But, it should be obvious what they each are to your opponent.

Now if you want to build a unique chapter that pulls from various codexes, come up with a unique color scheme. Use whatever Iconography you want, even mix it up a little, but be as consistent as you can be at least within each company. If you want to field Baal Predators, you need to field at least 1 HQ and 2 Troops that count as Blood Angels, then you could field up to 3 Baal Predators. Now if you want to have two squads of counts as Wolf Guard as well, then you need to field at least 1 HQ and 2 Troops that count as Space Wolves. Unless you field Logan Grimnar, then the 2 squads of Wolf Guard are troops.

With a unique color scheme and/or iconography it is easier say
“Because I am fielding Samson (Sammael), all bike squads and Land speeders count as Ravenwing, but these tactical squads and baal predators over here lead by Dante all count as Blood Angels.”
“These squads that are part of the 2nd Company of the Blood Wolves led by Regulus Bloodmane (Ragnar Blackmane) have learned to control their Blood Rage, and therefore count as Space Wolves not Blood Angels.”
“All of my counts as BA Squads are all wearing helmets, All of my counts as SW Squads are without helmets to better take advantage of their Acute Senses.”


I’ve long had a vision of building my own chapter (since 2nd edition) The Black Wolves. It was to be a second founding of the Space Wolves that more closely followed the Codex Astartes, but still not exactly. They could use the combat squads rule and in 2nd edition, Sergeants had access to special weapons. The Chapter had long eschewed the use of Mk7 helmets after seeing the entire 5th company wiped out, most of them by taking a bolter round through the front grill of the new Mk7 helmets, so every full-fledged marine wore a Mk6 helmet. The beaked nose of the Mk 6 helmet was more likely to deflect a stray round than the newer Mk7 helmet. The 5th company came to be replaced by a Company of Battle Sisters, the Sisters of the Lady of the Wolf.

Squads were as follows:
Grey Hunters = Black Ranger Squads (BR) 5-10 Black Rangers, up to 2 special weapons, no heavy weapons, Sgt. w/ special weapon.
Blood Claws = Sharp Tooth Squads (ST). 5-10 Sharp Teeth, no special or heavy weapons, Sgt. w/ special weapon, jump packs optional.
Long Fangs = Long Fangs Squads (LF). 5 Long Fangs, 4 heavy weapons, Sgt. w/ special weapon.

My original chapter layout (for 2nd edition rules) consisted of the following companies all painted up in the same unique color scheme.

• Company of the Great Wolf (Standard Space Wolf Chapter rules)
  1st Company (Counts as Death Company consisting of 100 Terminators)
  2nd-4th Companies - Battle Companies (100 marines, Standard Space Wolf Chapter Rules consisting of 6 BR squads, 2 ST squads, 4 LF squads)
  5th Company - Battle Company Sisters of the Lady of the Wolf (100 SOB’s consisting of 6 BS squads, 2 SS squads, 4 Retributer squads
  6th Company - Black Ranger Reserve Company (100 marines all mounted on bikes and landspeeders, Counts as Ravenwing)
  7th Company - Black Ranger Reserve Company (100 marines, Standard Space Wolf Chapter Rules consisting of 10 BR squads)
  8th Company - Sharp Tooth Reserve Company (100 marines, Standard Space Wolf Chapter Rules consisting of 10 ST squads 5 w/ jump packs, 5 w/o)
  9th Company - Long Fang Reserve Company (100 marines, Standard Space Wolf Chapter Rules consisting of 20 5 man LF squads)
  10th Company - Scout Company (100 scouts, 2 squads w/ BP/CCW, 2 squads w/ SG/BP, 2 squads w/ B/BP, 2 squads w/ SR/BP, 2 squads on bikes)

With the release 3rd, 4th, and now 5th edition rules, I know my Chapter layout would never fly. I still love Space Wolves, and there for I will probably build at least a company or so of Space Wolves.
But, my idea for a chapter all in Mk6 helmets just won’t die. This is partly because of the fact that I have collected over 100 metal Mk6 marines and almost 300 plastic mk6 heads over the years. If only GW had released a Plastic Mk 6 torso that wasn’t half covered by SW Stuff.

My current chapter layout (for 5th edition rules) consists of the following companies all in Mk6 helmets all painted up in the same unique color scheme.
Except where noted they use the Standard SM Codex.

• 1st Company (Veteran Company 100 marines, even? mix of Terminators, Assault Terminators, Sternguard, and Vanguard)
  2nd-5th Companies - Battle Companies (100 marines, 6 Tactical squads, 2 Assault squads in jump packs, 2 Devastator squads)
  6th Company - Tactical Reserve Company (100 marines all mounted on bikes and landspeeders, Counts as Ravenwing, led by Sammael on Jet Bike)
  7th Company - Tactical Reserve Company (100 marines, 10 Tactical squads)
  8th Company - Assault Reserve Company (100 marines, consisting of 10 Assault squads 5 w/ jump packs, 5 w/o)
  9th Company - Devastator Reserve Company (100 marines, consisting of 10 Devastator squads)
  10th Company - Scout Company (100 scouts, 2 squads w/ BP/CCW, 2 squads w/ SG/BP, 2 squads w/ B/BP, 2 squads w/ SR/BP, 2 squads on bikes)

If I have Sammael on the field, all bike squads and Land speeders count as Ravenwing, the rest of the army is straight up Space Marines.

I hope that some of this helps and actually answers your question instead of trying to argue a one point of view or another that is mostly Off Topic.

[EVIL INC]

Dakkar98, I actually dont want to argue at all. I just want to protect the right of us model owners to paint and convert our models as we like. I also want us to maintain our right to use whatever codex we want with our models (as GW encourages and their rules allow) so long as everything is wysiwyg. We are clearly able to do so and I just want to cave in to the internet bullies who are trying to force us to think the way they do on the matter (despite the fact that GW and the rules tell them they are wrong.
The above statements are facts. The following statements are opinions.
I personally despise the whole idea of HAVE to paint and model your army to suit the codex. It removes the whole concept of imagination from the artistic aspect of the game. That is why I just do not do it. I created my own legion and gave them their own colors and mix and match models as I see fit so long as equipment is the same. Heck, I even have a termy that is essentially a grey knight termy with a chaos left arm.
You should have no problems so long as you create your own scheme or just dont add on the extra decals and transfers that come with the models. Of course as we have seen, you will have people tell you you cant do that but they are YOUR models and to be truthful, YOU will be seen as the good guy and get more games from it while your detractors get less. Those detracters will really be few and FAR between in the actual world so finding one of those people will be like finding a needle in a haystack.
If you already have a pups army and it is already fully done up, you should still be able to do it. Just expect to have a few more needles in the haystack. They will still be few and far between and you will still likely never actually come across any. I would expect some friendly ribbing from your buddies though. Regardless any units or models that are equipped differently or are not immediately obvious by looking at them, I would model seperately. Examples...
1. Baal predator
2. Death company
3. Byorn fell handed
4. Wolf cavelry
There may be some others whose wargear (in terms on weapons) may not exactly match. Regardless, these things allow for you to use your imagination like the totally wolfed out werewolves as death company.

[MagickalMemories]

EVIL INC, I notice that you have had SEVERAL opportunities to respond to MagickalMemories direct question to you on the prior page of this thread, second post, and yet nothing. Did you send him a PM to answer that?

-Porkuslime

Not as of last night.

[EVIL INC]

I just sent a pm. But to answer your question, no, I dont recall ever making a pst that said "You are a liar". Just because we read the rulebook differently on the issue does not make either of us liars, it makes us have different interpretations. Do I think you are wrong? yes. That does not mean that I feel you are deliberately telling a lie on the topic.

[Stanislav]

Those detracters will really be few and FAR between in the actual world so finding one of those people will be like finding a needle in a haystack.

You must be a lucky man then, you seem to have found several in the short time this thread has been active. Whereas this may be kind of virtual, it's a pretty diverse sampling of what you would call the "real" world. Come on, you remember those statistic classes don't you?

[MagickalMemories]

I just sent a pm. But to answer your question, no, I dont recall ever making a pst that said "You are a liar". Just because we read the rulebook differently on the issue does not make either of us liars, it makes us have different interpretations. Do I think you are wrong? yes. That does not mean that I feel you are deliberately telling a lie on the topic.

You really need to re-read this thread.
The question wasn't about the rulebook. It wasn't about 40K.
It is about the rules of Bartertown - where your *interpretation* does not matter.

It was your erroneous claim to have never attacked anyone.
Any claims you make of not breaking rules or attacking others are mistakes or lies, and should be rectified.

[EVIL INC]

Nah, you can ignore the internet bullies. Just as with any other topic on the internet, you see people make grandiose statements and stances that they would never make in real life just because on the internet they can (not that I am saying anyone HERE is an internet bully of course). Even then, look at how many have posted in the thread saying that and how many members there are on the site. They are indeed needles in the haystack. Just as I said, the vast majority simply do not care one way or the other. This is followed by those who are fine with it and lastly, you have the few who are against it.

[EVIL INC]

Ok, tell me the words you want to tell me to post and I will copy and paste them into a post.
I apologize for the single snippy post I made earlier in the thread. With all of the flaming and trolling and putting words into my mouth that I was not saying, Not being permitted to report them I should have just ignored them.
I suppose that I also have to change my official stance on this topic and tell the OP that he is not allowed to do as he likes with his models. I believe that that should make everyone happy.

[MagickalMemories]

EVIL INC, your current (passive-aggressive) sig line shows that you just don'e "get it."

Bartetown site rules. Read them. Learn them. Follow them. I do.
Evidently I broke the rules when I encouraged creativity in modeling and conversions, so that's the one I did not follow. LOL
Treat other members with the same dignity, respect and honesty you would like to be treated with.

[EVIL INC]

I dont see why encouraging creativity in conversions and creating new chapters is such a bad thing. Games Workshop themselves, as I pointed out earlier even went so far as to show how to make skimmers from deodorant bottles, mix rtb01 marines with daleks and spotlighted hello kitty marines. I am absolutely sure that the space wolves are not the ONLY army or even race in the 40k universe to use the wolf as their totem or icon. Creating a new chapter based on wolves or werewolves should not be considered such a bad thing. After all, the wolf is a warlike animal and is often even considered a noble animal. As it is most definately a wild animal that is known to be fierce, there should be no problems with using a close combat oriented marine chapter codex to represent the creative new chapter. As a wolf chapter it would only make sense to use models that already have the symbols on them. As it is the codex that is used that determines the special rules for the models and everything would be exactly wysiwyg so there would be zero chances for confusion, I dont see why I have been flamed and attacked throughout the entire thread both actively and passive aggressively just because I tried to support the OP in creating his own chapter and having his models serve double duty, from all sides. Although ILike I said, I did make a single snippy post in response to all of those attacks and I have already apologized for it long since, they have been allowed and encouraged to continue. After all, the rules specifically say he can do it and to be honest, they are HIS moidels. He paid for them so he should have the right to do as he wants with them. Heck, if he wanted to, he can melt them all down and make a life size sculpture of a mammoth. I am sure he would be laughed at but I am absolutely sure that the GW police would not go to his home and arrest him for it.
But like I said, tell me what opinion I am required to have on the subject at hand (the ability to create a new chapter and use space wolf models) and I will parrot it back as ordered.

[Brian Adair]

Evil,

While I encourage your enthusiasm for "championing" my cause, I assure you, I'll be running my army the way I want, with or without the general populations approval. I merely wanted to know the general concensus on the topic and have gotten exactly "what I paid for" so to speak. It is very clear that people have mixed feelings on the matter, no different than just about any other topic we could discuss but that is life. As several have mentioned there is no reason to beat a dead horse, and I thank everyone for their input, and the opinions they expressed.

Brian

[EVIL INC]

No problem Brian although I was not just championing your cause, it is the cause of the majority of gamers. This is the first place I have ever had anyone tell me I cant use legion symbols on my chaos models if they are not in that legion or model them how I want. The constant flaming and passive aggressive attacks have gotten old so this is my last post here because i am no longer going to read them. Should anyone wish to continue the discussion on the topic at hand (GW rules, painting or converting) please feel free to send a pm.
Good luck with your army and remember that the naysayers are in the minority, Games Workshop and the rules they produce support you, so you should have no problems.