One last question: "Counts as" or New Army

[s_o_r_r_o_w]

2) Gw's ass-hattery is occasionally exceeded by some players who do want to claim that Ragnar Blackmane is Dante, Bjorn is the BA character Dread, and Thunderwolves are attack bikes.

All of which is fine by me, and mostly fine in GW tournaments too...

Ragnar/Dante is grey - some allow this, some don't. Bjorn and Thunderwolves would be fine, and GW promotes using alternatives for stuff - cavalry for jetbikes for example is often done!

Dante has a jetpack and different wargear, the BA character dread has a different weapon loadout than Bjorn, and a guy on a wolf is not two guys on a bike with a multi-melta (or beavy bolter).

That's my problem with this sort of "counts as".

In my all metal Rogue Trader marine army, I'm using a few "counts as": jetbikes for regular bikes, and a riding lizard as a bike as well. I think that the riding lizard is pushing it a bit myself, but it's cool and rare and old, so I'm hoping my opfors won't mind. But if they did, I couldn't fault them too much as a lizard with no guns on it is clearly not that similar to a bike with two.

[MagickalMemories]

As has been said, please keep the personal attacks out of the thread. I have not done that myself

So, then, you're calling two Administrators LIARS?

[wookieegunner]

The rules allows for it.

Evil, you keep saying this, please show me the rule that says that Space Wolf specific mini's can be used as Blood Angel Mini's. I have already listed a rule that shows in the past GW did enforce a "Canon Chapters must use canon rules" in competive play and shown how using the same "pre-rules" intro section of the 5th ed basic book leads to the conclusion that each specific Codex is designed to be used with a specific set of miniatures, and the Space Wolf specific mini's do not fall under the Blood Angel list (and for this I was and still am discussing the ones with pelts, et al. not the generic minis that are in both lists on GW's website). Of course this assumes that the intro counts as rules (which is hard pressed to argue since it is before the big RULES header on page 1). In addition GW has for a long time had a "you can't use a different army set of models without converting, such as the example of modifying IG for tau auxillery." and I have yet to see where the OP has discussed modding any weapon WYSIWYG models to differentiate them as non-SW.

The only rule I have seen you point to "The Most Important Rule" which I have already mentioned is superceded in competitive play, otherwise the two guys in last place can decide amongst themselves that their fight determines the tournament's 1st and 2nd place and if the orginizers don't like it then they cry "But GW's rulebook says we can decide anything amongst ourselves and it counts!!!"

Now I do know the current Space Marine Codex and Tyranid Codex has exceptions for special characters, as has already pointed out, but as someone who has been playing as long as you have I'm sure you know that GW's stance is what is in one codex doesn't apply to another codex (i.e. DH Rhinos) and besides, those exceptions are for Special Characters from Canon sources inside that army's list.

The basic problem is that from a Rules perspective a Space Wolf or Blood Angel is just as much different races when compared to each other as Eldar and Orks are. So please, show me the rule that says I can use my Striking Scorpions as 'Ard Boyz in my Ork list in competitive play. Striking Scorpions have armor, pistols, and CC weapons so they are weapon/armor WYSIWYG with 'Ard Boyz and therefore just as close model wise as a Wolf Pack miniature and a Blood Angel Tactical Marine.

[Brian Adair]

Folks,

I don't think you are going to find anything in the rulebook supporting or prohibiting people using their minis in this manner. Heck, it is as much part of the game as the rules negotiation phase (let's not even delve into the horrors of RAW and RAI). I have been to many GW sanctioned events where armies were unpainted but to fill the slots they were allowed in (Even a Gamesday), I have played against models so horribly painted, they would have been better off just being primed and left at that, I have had people convert units so they looked nothing like the original model (or what GW envisioned them to be- that is kind of like iconography isn't it), yet as hobbyists we encourage this don't we (or I guess that would be another argument)? Simple fact, everyone plays the game for different reasons and with different expectations. In my opinion, once you draw that line in the sand you suddenly start either a. being hypocritical or b. really limiting your opponents

a. no cross chapter iconography or paint schemes
b. no poorly painted models
c. no confusing conversions

I have played against a guy who converted a whole eldar army where I had to constantly ask, what is this unit because nothing looked like a guardian or a vyper or a wraithguard (it was an iyanden army all created of robots)- heck his models were great but not easily identified. Should I have refused to play him or give him a hard time? I couldn't stop heaping praise on him for doing something different. I just can't see how that can be accepted but using a WYSIWYG army that is painted an off color and has skulls instead of blood drops isn't. Yet, this is one of those issues where people choose their side of the fence and stay on it, either you accept it or your don't but don't expect to find any answers from GW.

[EVIL INC]

wookieegunner, The most important rules covers it all. I have provided the rule and page number (it is supported throughout the rest of the rulebook as well as the intro pages leading up to it not to mention all of the rulebooks and editions before it). You provided a house rule. In situations outside of that house rule setting, the rulebook supersedes it. Sorry I gotta say it, but in terms of a game produced by a company, I will have to take the word and official stance of the company over some random guy on the internet about the rules. This especially so when the proof stares me in the face in black and white.
You are mistaken on another aspect as well. A model with equipment sculpted onto it is no different in game terms as another with identical equipment. What makes them different in game terms is the codex and rules being used for them, not the color paint.

Brian Adair, look at John Blaches models. LOL Some of them you cant even figure out what they are supposed to be. Love his paintings and drawings but his models are confusing as all get out. They usually dont even have the "right" colors. Never heard of anyone refusing him a game or telling him he cant do his models as he wishes. They even grace the pages of white dwarf and the codexes. Dont forget the deodorant bottle skimmers and marine/dalek models GW used as examples of conversions in earlier editions of the rules.

[s_o_r_r_o_w]

Dont forget the deodorant bottle skimmers and marine/dalek models GW used as examples of conversions in earlier editions of the rules.

That's a low blow. We can't always default to the deodorant bottle. Try throwing some Zoids in there now and then.

And of those Dalek/Marine conversions, i have to say, the guy with the 3 blade prop glued to his back was my favourite.

[EVIL INC]

Dont forget the deodorant bottle skimmers and marine/dalek models GW used as examples of conversions in earlier editions of the rules.

That's a low blow. We can't always default to the deodorant bottle. Try throwing some Zoids in there now and then.

LOL, you almost made me spit soda. It IS a low blow but proves the point perfectly well. I have seen zoids used. Also seen legos used, stacked paperback books and audio cassettes, armymen. Should we even glance in the direction of the orks and tell those players that they cant use marine rhinos or toy dump trucks or anything like that in their conversions because they were not produced by GW and sold as packaged ork vehicles? Not saying that we should, just asking if we should bring them into it.

[kelanen]

Should we even glance in the direction of the orks and tell those players that they cant use marine rhinos or toy dump trucks or anything like that in their conversions because they were not produced by GW and sold as packaged ork vehicles? Not saying that we should, just asking if we should bring them into it.

Actually for sanctioned GW tournaments (at least in this country) yes a tonka dump truck would be prohibited, whilst using your Blood Angels as Ultramarines wouldn't. Any conversion has to have it's basis in a GW model, at least for our sanctioned tournaments.

A friend of mine has a Dreadnought in his CSM army, that is some anime model that happens to look pretty much like a dreadnought. It has a popout cockpit into which he has put a GW sarcophagus pilot. It's obviously fine for playing amongst ourselves, and the pilot joke about the 'core of a conversion' means he could get away with it in most shops. He knows full well he'd never be able to play it at a tournament though.

[EVIL INC]

You know, I have a "nurgle" dread based on some warmachine jack model. Even have the arms with magnets so that I can switch on/off one or two tyranid huge crab claws, I also have a missile launcher and plasma cannon from ooooolllddd titan models with magnets and a magnetized las cannon. (that fires rapidly to represent its being twin linked) and only gotten compliments. I realize I could never use it in a GW tourney though.

[MagickalMemories]

I don't think you are going to find anything in the rulebook supporting or prohibiting people using their minis in this manner.

Agreed.

(let's not even delve into the horrors of RAW and RAI).

Doubly agreed. LOL

I have had people convert units so they looked nothing like the original model (or what GW envisioned them to be- that is kind of like iconography isn't it), yet as hobbyists we encourage this don't we (or I guess that would be another argument)?

Most of us do.*

I have played against a guy who converted a whole eldar army where I had to constantly ask, what is this unit because nothing looked like a guardian or a vyper or a wraithguard (it was an iyanden army all created of robots)- heck his models were great but not easily identified. Should I have refused to play him or give him a hard time?

(Emphasis mine)

Depends. How well did you know him?
If it was a casual friend (like, you knew each other from hanging around the same shop, but weren't "buddies," then yes. You should have teased him about it a little.
If he was one of your buddies... you should have teased him about it mercilessly.
That's what friends are for. Especially as guys.
We harrass each other to the verge of tears. It makes the weak strong.
(Note the joviality intended above)

Please, note that I wouldn't support harassing people you don't know about it but, as friends, we should be able to tease each other. I find a little harassment over making things confusing for me to be quite appropriate... and you'd be welcome to do the same to me. : )


*To be fair, there's a difference. Probably would be "another argument."
Converting is converting. Taking your Space Wolves army and calling them Blood Angels is not converting. it isn't even "Counts as." It's proxying.
As I stated, though, I am TOTALLY okay with proxying (outside of tournaments)... but the degree to which I have to ask WTF something is will definitely determine the level of harassment (as defined above) you receive for it.

Hope that makes my p.o.v. clear, anyway.


Eric

[Brian Adair]

Eric,

The guy with the converted Iyanden army was actually an opponent of mine at a Gamesday RT event. I guess to me the models don't matter as much as the actual game, would I prefer to at least be able to look at the board and know what everything is without asking, yes, but the actuality of things are I have to ask what units special abilities are anyways. I don't own all the codexes, and certainly don't play often enough that I could cite stat lines and special rules anyways- so what do I care if I have to ask "are those guardians or dire avengers". I guess tourney play just like any other aspect of the GW hobby is defined by the enthusiast- I use tournies to play the game. I don't have a local group to play in the basement and with all the responsibilities I have, I can't drive 30-45 minutes each way to get in a game. So, if every 3 months or so I can go to a tourney and play, and get in a few games I am happy. When I play as little as I do, why the heck would I want 5 different armies so I can play different tactics? However, more than likely if I like the new BA codex, I might invest in a new army, ultimately not because people wouldnt want to play "Counts as" but more because I am model driven over anything else and I really like the new DC models.

Brian

[Gaijin18]

ah come on who doesn't love the deodorant tank,great for playing against nurgle.

[Ironhide]

Maybe when guys want to proxy/"count as" (I see them as the same thing), they should be required to provide a copy of their army list to their opponent, with pics of the units beside each entry.

[MagickalMemories]

Eric,

The guy with the converted Iyanden army was actually an opponent of mine at a Gamesday RT event. I guess to me the models don't matter as much as the actual game, would I prefer to at least be able to look at the board and know what everything is without asking, yes, but the actuality of things are I have to ask what units special abilities are anyways. I don't own all the codexes, and certainly don't play often enough that I could cite stat lines and special rules anyways- so what do I care if I have to ask "are those guardians or dire avengers". I guess tourney play just like any other aspect of the GW hobby is defined by the enthusiast- I use tournies to play the game. I don't have a local group to play in the basement and with all the responsibilities I have, I can't drive 30-45 minutes each way to get in a game. So, if every 3 months or so I can go to a tourney and play, and get in a few games I am happy. When I play as little as I do, why the heck would I want 5 different armies so I can play different tactics? However, more than likely if I like the new BA codex, I might invest in a new army, ultimately not because people wouldnt want to play "Counts as" but more because I am model driven over anything else and I really like the new DC models.

Brian

In a friendly game, I agree with you.
A pick-up game at the local game store, or at my buddy's house... I don't mind AT ALL. "Count as." Proxy." Whatever. It's all good. As long as it's on your sheet and YOU know what it is, I'm fine with it.
You will get harassed, but not angrily. In a friendly manner (the less I know you, the easier I am on the harassment - but it's always obvious that it's in fun).
At a tourney? There's just too much room for error, mistakes and confusion. Someone could (and I've known and played against those who would and/or did) use confusion to their advantage to "slip one by you."
It's not that I PRESUME someone would, but you know what they say about one bad apple.

I think you touched on something interesting. You're looking at it from the p.o.v. of a guy who rarely gets to play, so is desperate (wrong word, maybe) for a game. I game 3 or 4 times a month, so I have less invested in that one guy who's proxying.

Eric

[EVIL INC]

I come at it from the perspective of someone who has been dirt poor his entire life and has spent a lieftime accumulating the models a "reguler" person gets in a single year. That means that people like me have to have their models serve double duty. Heck, my chaos models, I painted up in my own colors and I use decals from whatever I thought looked good at the time. That means they have alpha legion and word bearers marks both on some. My chaos marines have been used to represent everything from each of the legions to many of the loyalist chapters. The same for many of the people I have played over the years. To me and the people I enjoy playing, the fun is more important then anything else. We would rather play a guy who proxies lego marines then a jerk who has perfect pro painted stuff. Anymore, finding an opponant is no problem for me. I have a nearby store (still only get to play a few games every few weeks) and when I go to the store, anyone there jumps at the opportunity to play me. Dont get me wrong, I am not trying to brag. A few years ago, I switched to gaurd and I am just now getting it pretty well finished. I painted every single model in it as though it were a special character model (my god that took forever and I wouldnt be half done if I had not taken advantage of getting laid off). Needless to say, I have one of the best looking armies in the area and have won MANY painting comps. The people there also know I am really laid back and enjoy a good game even if I get my ass handed to me on a platter. My buddies and I feel that there is more to the hobby thennumbers and rules. Starting so many years ago when GW itself was young, we embraced creativity , ingenuity and playing in the "spirit" of sportsmanship and fun. We enjoy discussing the fluff as much as anyone and enjoy bringing the older fluff to the younger players. In the face of all of this, something as little as to whether or not a model has a wolf head on the shoulder or a teardrop when everything else is the same is a VERY small thing and we see it as petty to have a fit over it in the face of everything else. It is reasons like this that I fight so vehemently to protect people who are forced to have their models serve double duty or who want to be different from the norm in creating their own armies background.