Need a good rules lawyer for 40k Assault:Please help

[Brian Adair]

EZ- I agree with your assessment but my drawing was poor.

Suppose I had this

x x
x x
x

LW
g
g g
gggg

Now you have to contact the first model as it is the closest.

[Brian Adair]

Here is a better one:

x x x x x x x
x x x x


W LW W
g g g
g g g g

In this scenario, I have opted to take 2 accompanying wolves.

[EZ mac]

EZ- I agree with your assessment but my drawing was poor.

Suppose I had this

x x
x x
x

LW
g
g g
gggg

Now you have to contact the first model as it is the closest.

you wanted an arrow yes?
x--- x
-x--x
--x

LW
-g
g-g
gggg

here is how it works: red unit declares assault on mr blue unit. Red unit moves on either side of LW and touches mr blues base while stoping out of LW's 1inch mark as he "may not move into base contact with enemy models from a unit they are not assaulting". the other x's move to try and engage the g's while remaining in coherency (with red and any other model which has already moved). red may not charge both units as on page 34 it states: ....

the remaining models can assault models belonging to other enemy units. As long as they keep following the rules for moving assaulting models.

so technically if you have a lonewolf on a base which would block mr red from getting to blue then the assault cannot happen.

[EZ mac]

Here is a better one:

x x x x x x x
x x x x


W LW W
g g g
g g g g

In this scenario, I have opted to take 2 accompanying wolves.

this can just be thought of as a unit in front of another unit. You may not move through other models so the first closest would need to get base to base with the closest g or could just charge the lw squad and allow the rest of his unit to engage the ggggg's

[Brian Adair]

EZ,

So if I am reading your response right in the first scenario, putting the lone wolf their could keep much of the opponents squad out of close combat as they need to remain in coherency thus reducing their attacks and helping out my GH squad without actually fighting?

[EZ mac]

EZ,

So if I am reading your response right in the first scenario, putting the lone wolf their could keep much of the opponents squad out of close combat as they need to remain in coherency thus reducing their attacks and helping out my GH squad without actually fighting?

besides the whole idea of your models having to pile in which has their own rules for were and how far they must go/ be in base contact ect so only hitting 2 guys in your g squads would make the rest of the g squad comeup to get in the fight.


why would this have a tactical response? this is a rules question so jusat having a lone wolf does not equal less attacks for your opponent, its a placement thing

[Brian Adair]

Again, I will go back to a 30 man ork squad assaulting by my Lone Wolf into the grey hunters- I just don't see how the Ork player could manage to get many of his orks into base contact with my GH (even without counter attack movement) and still have the LW not be in the melee. I keep picturing a donut with the lone wolf at the center- and if that is accurate those guys at the back end of the donut wouldn't be within 2 inches of the combat, especially since the LW is a termie and on a larger base.

[Norseman]

You would have a 1" donut of no orks around your LW if he was not assaulted.

The assault phase allows you to move within 1 inch of enemy models but after the assault phase the orks would have to be in a legal position after the assualt. In this way your LW could be within the 2" HtH "bubble" but NOT be considered engaged in the HtH. He would not be able to attack or be attacked, even though he is in the bubble. The ork player would have to respect the having to be 1" away of non HtH engaged models. Which would result in the donut effect.

1 Thing you would have to consider as well is that the line around the LW could make the model that seemed to be the closest not the closest.

ggggggg

LW

X
X XXXX

Green X may not be the closest due to the route travelled Blue X may be the closest. (in some cases.)

[Ironhide]

I'll allow it. Nothing like bogging down two units with one. Especially if that one unit is a squad of Assault Termies! The potential of this strategy backfiring is not to be underestimated.

[MagickalMemories]

Bottom line is that you measure which model is the closest and, if you can reach him with your charge move, he is the model you must contact FIRST.

You may avoid contacting the second unit (Lone Wolf) if you wish. Your opponent can't REQUIRE you to multi-charge a unit different than your intended unit. You CAN move withing 1" or END your move within 1" of an enemy model, so long as you are assaulting a different unit.

None of your charging models can move so that they're in base to base with 2 different units (Long Fangs and the Lone Wolf).

It would also be stupid to allow the second unit (Lone Wolf) to be left off of the charge. Better that you charge him than have him charge you and get the extra attack from it.

Hope that helps clarify. All those letters that were supposed to represent formations were making my eyes go haywire. LOL


Eric

[EZ mac]

Bottom line is that you measure which model is the closest and, if you can reach him with your charge move, he is the model you must contact FIRST.

You may avoid contacting the second unit (Lone Wolf) if you wish. Your opponent can't REQUIRE you to multi-charge a unit different than your intended unit. You CAN move withing 1" or END your move within 1" of an enemy model, so long as you are assaulting a different unit.

None of your charging models can move so that they're in base to base with 2 different units (Long Fangs and the Lone Wolf).

It would also be stupid to allow the second unit (Lone Wolf) to be left off of the charge. Better that you charge him than have him charge you and get the extra attack from it.

Hope that helps clarify. All those letters that were supposed to represent formations were making my eyes go haywire. LOL


Eric

as someone who plays death guard id rather charge grey hunters who have 2x plasma only then wait for a lone wolf to get me the next turn (and let my deffensive grenades stop the assault bonus) esspecially if the pup has a power wep of some kind

but yeah i mean any unit/ model/ vehicle can do this, its not like its a special rule for lone wolves or anything like that, heck a rhino does it alot better (bigger area so takes longer to move around)

[don_mondo]

Two things, IMO.
1. The first model cannot, is not allowed, to contact two different models. He can only move by the shortest route to one model in the unit that the assault is declared to be against. Main rules, page 34:
Start each assault by moving a single model from the assaulting unit. The model selected must be the one closest to the enemy (going around impassable terrain, friendly models and enemy models in units not being assaulted). Move the model into contact with the nearest enemy model in the unit being assaulted, using the shortest possible route.
So as stated, the initial model goes around enemy models in units not being assaulted. He's not assaulting the LW unit, he's assaulting the GW unit, so has to go around (ie not touch) the LW unit. Next line reinforces this with the singular "enemy model in the unit being assaulted". So yes, it is possible to avoid the LW and assault only the GH, just might take some maneuvering on the part of the assaulting unit. But as long as there is a sliver of space between the LW and the assaulting models, he's not in the combat. Remember, the 'cannot move within an inch' rule goes away when assaulting (also on page 34: All of the models in an assaulting unit make their assault move following the same rules as in the Movement phase, with the exception that they may be moved within 1" of enemy models.). So you can go around enemy models within 1" of them, you can shoot the gap between two enemy models if it's wider than your base, and so on. You just cannot make btb contact with enbemy models in a unit you are not assaulting. And the first model is only allowed to assault the closest model in the unit the assault is declared to be against.

2. Models after the first would be permitted to make btb with mulitple models if possible. So if any model other than the first did (intentionally) contact the LW unit, then it would be a multiple combat. When this comes up in my games, I point out that models are from a different unit from the one being assaulted and ask if they intended to assault multiple units?

[Ironhide]

It would also be stupid to allow the second unit (Lone Wolf) to be left off of the charge. Better that you charge him than have him charge you and get the extra attack from it.

Eric

Uh, they're SW. They have counter attack. They get the extra attack anyways.

[gammer]

im probably just repeting whats already been said but the bottem line here is no model can move closer than 1 inch to a model their not assaulting so if your clever enough you could possibly block the way with the lw but if the assault is declaired on the gh the lone wolf is just a pylon and can be ignored. or if the rules for multi combat havent changed too much from 4th ed then the assault player can choose after engageing all gh possible, to then engage the lw. i understand perfectly what your geting at and NO it's not how it works. if you try to assalt the gh and the first model in the assault can't make it because he dose not have enough movement to contact the closest gh without being 1 inch or better away from the lw then the assault is a failure. becides the lw should be just that. alone. he is after all there to die! hope this clears it up.

[don_mondo]

im probably just repeting whats already been said but the bottem line here is no model can move closer than 1 inch to a model their not assaulting

Wrong, wrong, wrong! You ignore the 1" restriction when making assault moves. Period. I quoted it in my previous post even. Here it is again:
page 34: All of the models in an assaulting unit make their assault move following the same rules as in the Movement phase, with the exception that they may be moved within 1" of enemy models.

Doesn't say enemy models in the unit you're assaulting, just says enemy models. If there is a 1 1/2" gap between two enemy models in a unit you're not assaulting and a model behind that you want to assault, you can shoot the gap, as long as your base will fit, to assault the model behind them.

Bottom line, you may move within 1" of enemy models you are not assaulting.