GW's continued scam [rant]

[kturock]

It took them over 10 years just to replace damaged minis you bought directly from them. They still don't replace broken minis from retailers. [Don't even mention online sales to them.]

I am not sure what you are talking about here. I have NEVER had a problem getting replacements from GW. In fact, recently I bought an AoBR box that was missing a couple of Ork items and GW sent me a WHOLE AoBR box within a week. I am sure that I will get hit with all kinds of negatives about me saying this, but that has been my experience with GW.

And, I don't know how you can call it stretching things to use items that you paid for in whatever manner that you see fit. And if you have played GW's three "Main" games, then you owe it to yourself to at least check out the "specialist" games. Of course, people gripe about them because GW doesn't do anything with them. Kind of funny when you think about it.

And kturock, I wasn't singling you out about the GW/PP thing. I just read a couple of comments that just reminded me of some Ford/Chevy boards that I have seen.

As for the ruleset, if you don't like the new rules then what can you say. YOU don't like them. That doesn't mean that everybody else doesn't like them...

I have only played 40K since 3rd edition and the rules are fairly consistant with tweaks. I have an older rulebook, but I haven't delved too much into it. I played WFB back when it had the magic cards. The newer editions of it are FAR nicer (IMO). Granted, I don't like the new magic all that much, but overall it is better. If you don't like changes to the ruleset and have some older GW figures, check out the specialist games. There is some good gaming stuff going on there.

Karl

My newest box of talisman I bought from the flgs. It's missing pieces. I called GW they said take it back to the store, since you didn't buy it fromus or an authorized store. The flgs used Alliance as their distributor. Allaince said GW wouldn't give them a credit if they took it back, so they won't give it to the flgs.

I bought bases from GW, from ther online store. I misunderstood how many were in a bag, so I got 4x what I needed. They don't do any form of refund or return, eve3n on unopened items.

I bought stuff from an online store, a tank or rhino or somehing. It was missing pieces. GW said they don't honor any online sales except their own.

I bought metal minis way back when, that were miss molded and GW wouldn't even take call. They onl had a toll phone number in the US; and then only to place an order. I would have to call the uK for 'customer service". Parts were missing. Arms, legs, wings didn't have enough lead. The pieces were poorly molded. Pieces didn't line up.

But yet i still think most looked better than the plastic crap they spew out now.


I haven't like the rules since 2nd ed.
I've had every set of rules and almost every game until the latest set of 40K.
I've had almost all of the specialist games. BB from 1st ed. Mordheim, BFG, talisman both ed's, necromunda. Blockwars, judge dredd, chainsaw warrior, a couple others who's names I don't recall. [rogue trooper i think.]

Rogue trader was a good generic rulebook; by gamers for gamers. Make what you want and then have fun. Use proxies.
2nd ed was a rules set for mini/models, not for squads. kool minis/models and rules for them.
3rd ed was squad based rules. If 1 guy in the squad farted, they all did.
4th was a tweak off 3rd. Corrections of what peole complained about.
5th I haven't even bothered with, since the codexes haven't been updated since 2nd or 3rd.

Warhammer has gone through changes. The 1st rules were ok with the magic cards. The next set with dice pools suked. The newest are actaully better.
Move of the real rules, for movement, facing changes, shooting, fighting, morale haven't changed since the beginning. The magic system, and of course points cost and army lists and choices; are all that's changed.

I mean you buy a mini, advertised in the monthly overpriced catalogue, to get all the new fancy bits on it. You pay an exorpedint price for it, and the 2-6 monthes later, it's now just an even more over-priced rank and file model iof you're lucky. If you're unlucky, maybe you can use it for terrain.

Read what I started the rant with. A model that was dropped a couple years ago, be cause 'it was silly. A joke about the hamster ball'. That has been rereleased, because it's no longer silly, but 'keeps with the flavor of the army'. So goblins on kites are ok, but hamsterballs aren't.

Everytime theres a change in GW design or production team, there's a change in the rules and minis/models allowed.

[JohnHwangBT]

Maybe you can't use the RULES that were originally meant for 'em, but you can still use the minis.

That's what "Counts as" is all about.

[/Devil's Advocate]

Eric

QFT.

Rules come and go, but minis are eternal.

[kturock]

Think of it this way -

When you were a kid, and outside playing Dodge Ball with one of those rubber balls, and the teacher said no more dodge ball kids are getting hurt (or whatever). Did you sit on the ball, pop it and throw it over the fence, or did it suddenly become a basketball, despite not being intended for one, but for inventive kids its just fine and dandy and the world keeps turning.

and if someone took your dodgeball, and gave you a rock instead; and said these are the new rules, oh and we get to throw it 1st and you can't move, you'd use it?

Um, what?

That doesnt make any sense. Are you saying the crappy metal models of old were BETTER than this awesome plastic stuff?? You would rather have old one eye than a plastic carnie? Thats not GWs fault that you arent the common consumer. And they are a big business, if you arent their common money hander over, then no they dont care about you. Otherwise they would be out of business.

I think you see this whole thing as a big conspiracy that GW hates everyone, and wants to go out of business, but its just the type of player you represent, the one that hates change and doesnt understand that a business is (of course) going to look out for itself first.

You bought because it looked cool and has WYSIWYG parts. Now WYS is not useable.
Who wants to buy my mini with 2 powerfists? anyone?

What? You dont even have to proxy that anymore. Its in the rules.

My rant is how GW is, and always has, said screw the consumer. We'll keep relasing half-assed rules for our kool minis; and sue anyone who comes up with better rules.

So? Since when is every corporation supposed to be Salvation Army? Its this way with every business, its there to make money first. If it is a crappy company and they really do like to punish their customers, they will just fail. Market tends to give business exactly what it deserves.

It took them over 10 years just to replace damaged minis you bought directly from them. They still don't replace broken minis from retailers. [Don't even mention online sales to them.

Playing devils advocate - so what? There are a lot of people that try and get free stuff by lying about broken minis. Dont blame them one bit!

They started off as gamers tryiong to write rules. Now they're bussimen pretending to be gamers. Bottom line 1st. Public opinion last.

Welcome to America? I dunno. Its not a bad thing. As I said the market will naturally punish bad companies, so I dont worry about it.

The plastic sucks. True some have better sculpts, but the "awsomely huge' sized space marines are now smaller. The humongos terminators are now eating tofu and doing pillates to keep their shape.

They're smaller, with less material. The material itself is cheaper to make; and yet the prices have gone up.
They raised the prices when there was the THREAT of a fee for using lead in toys.

.

[kturock]

Think of it this way -

When you were a kid, and outside playing Dodge Ball with one of those rubber balls, and the teacher said no more dodge ball kids are getting hurt (or whatever). Did you sit on the ball, pop it and throw it over the fence, or did it suddenly become a basketball, despite not being intended for one, but for inventive kids its just fine and dandy and the world keeps turning.

and if someone took your dodgeball, and gave you a rock instead; and said these are the new rules, oh and we get to throw it 1st and you can't move, you'd use it?

Um, what?

That doesnt make any sense. Are you saying the crappy metal models of old were BETTER than this awesome plastic stuff?? You would rather have old one eye than a plastic carnie? Thats not GWs fault that you arent the common consumer. And they are a big business, if you arent their common money hander over, then no they dont care about you. Otherwise they would be out of business.

I think you see this whole thing as a big conspiracy that GW hates everyone, and wants to go out of business, but its just the type of player you represent, the one that hates change and doesnt understand that a business is (of course) going to look out for itself first.

You bought because it looked cool and has WYSIWYG parts. Now WYS is not useable.
Who wants to buy my mini with 2 powerfists? anyone?

What? You dont even have to proxy that anymore. Its in the rules.

My rant is how GW is, and always has, said screw the consumer. We'll keep relasing half-assed rules for our kool minis; and sue anyone who comes up with better rules.

So? Since when is every corporation supposed to be Salvation Army? Its this way with every business, its there to make money first. If it is a crappy company and they really do like to punish their customers, they will just fail. Market tends to give business exactly what it deserves.

It took them over 10 years just to replace damaged minis you bought directly from them. They still don't replace broken minis from retailers. [Don't even mention online sales to them.

Playing devils advocate - so what? There are a lot of people that try and get free stuff by lying about broken minis. Dont blame them one bit!

They started off as gamers tryiong to write rules. Now they're bussimen pretending to be gamers. Bottom line 1st. Public opinion last.

Welcome to America? I dunno. Its not a bad thing. As I said the market will naturally punish bad companies, so I dont worry about it.

Let's not talk business. Failed businesses survive all the time. There are too many over the las dozen years that have failed but have surived due to government support.

[arch_8ngel]

For the couple of you pissing and moaning so hard about GW's newer stuff...why did you continue to buy it for so long after they upset you?

There is no law preventing you from using your old army to play with the older rules that you and your friends enjoyed.

[s_o_r_r_o_w]

The plastic sucks. True some have better sculpts, but the "awsomely huge' sized space marines are now smaller. The humongos terminators are now eating tofu and doing pillates to keep their shape.

They're smaller, with less material. The material itself is cheaper to make; and yet the prices have gone up.
They raised the prices when there was the THREAT of a fee for using lead in toys.

.

Hey Kturock--I don't know what figs you're looking at, 'cause it is flat out incorrect to say that the plastic marines are smaller....



(Hit "View Image" if it's too big for your screen)

It is true that Guardsmen have gotten bigger...but RT Guardsmen were not appreciably smaller than RT marines.

[kturock]

Thinner. The newer plastics; especially the termies.
No I'm not talking about the space hulk beetle back termies.
I'm talking the lead/pewter ones vs the new multipart.
Even the last metal GK termies looked anorexic compared to the old.

OH yeah, that's another group of minis that got screwed. I had more than were allowed to be fielded under 4th, from back in 2nd ed.

Then there's also the space mariones can;t use axes, only choas crap.
The 2nd mini from left to right in your pic came in a set that had axes and swords.
in 3rd and 4th ed they had to be either hand weapon or become chaos marines. Really nice if you don't have any other chaos models, or even the codex.

[s_o_r_r_o_w]

What do you mean, anorexic? Like the diameter of their limbs is smaller? Again, the current plastic marines (don't have the Terminators in front of me) are bigger in all respects to the RT Marines and successors. The only thing that got smaller was their hands...and this isn't something I personally have an issue with, since the fingers on the 2ed Space Marines were huge.

As for the axes, hand flamers, double barreled sawed off shotguns, etc.--these are all close combat weapons. not defunct, just re-categorized as a group. Again, not a problem for basically anyone.

I'm not a GW apologist--in fact, I dislike many things about them. The quality/sculpting of the overwhleming majority of tehir figs is not an issue though.

And I was thinking about your complaint re the 2 power fist model...that was one fig. One. And I need him, so if you don't want it anymore, I'll gladly buy it. I'm presently building a space marine army using 1 of every RT marine (metal), and I'm having no real issues finding equipment rules to match the figs. How to fit in 6 chaplains...that's an issue.

[JohnHwangBT]

Hey Kturock--I don't know what figs you're looking at, 'cause it is flat out incorrect to say that the plastic marines are smaller....

It is true that Guardsmen have gotten bigger...but RT Guardsmen were not appreciably smaller than RT marines.

RT Marines are a little smaller than current SMs. Definitely, they're skinnier.

RT Marines were humans in PA, so of course they'd be closer in size to RT Guardsmen, like 2E Sisters. With the statline changes and so forth, Marines got bigger.

[Lord Alaric]

Minis/models unsuable in GW rules as of right now:
Squats, Chaos Dwarves, Hybrid Genestealers, imperial guard jet bikes, at least half a dozen named characters.

[Devil's advocate]

How are ANY of those unusable?
Got squats? IG has a new codex, and those trikes would make spectacular Rough Riders.
Chaos Dwarves? Well, I don't play fantasy, but I'd imagine they could proxy SOMETHING "chaosy."

Hybrid Genestealers? Use 'em as a posse for your Brood Lord... or in your Renegade IG army as Veterans.

IG jet bikes? Rough Riders.

Named characters can become generic Commissars, Lt's, Etc.
Maybe you can't use the RULES that were originally meant for 'em, but you can still use the minis.

That's what "Counts as" is all about.

[/Devil's Advocate]

Eric

Exactly!

Except for the fact that he (or we)buys models for what they are, and not what GW deems "fitting" at any given time.
Example, Sgt Centurious....even though it was a limited run model, there were rules for him, and those few of us who had one were allowed to use him as such. now...no rules for him anywhere to be found. Why should we have to settle for using him as anything other than what the model was intended to be?

Again, my point is: if you're going to do something, support it or don't do it.

[HarlequinZero]

Again, my point is: if you're going to do something, support it or don't do it.

So, to use a car as an analogy, if I had an old Ford Pinto and drove it into a Ford dealership I should expect to be able to get the thing serviced then and there? By your logic a car company should be able to repair and supply parts for any car they've ever produced. Same for washing machines, refrigerators, boats.... I think you get the idea. I can't think of a single industry were this would be a viable concept. It would drive pretty much ANY company in ANY industry out of business.

[kturock]

Again, my point is: if you're going to do something, support it or don't do it.

So, to use a car as an analogy, if I had an old Ford Pinto and drove it into a Ford dealership I should expect to be able to get the thing serviced then and there? By your logic a car company should be able to repair and supply parts for any car they've ever produced. Same for washing machines, refrigerators, boats.... I think you get the idea. I can't think of a single industry were this would be a viable concept. It would drive pretty much ANY company in ANY industry out of business.

Yes I'd expect them to keep supporting the car, for 2 years. That's the current roll-out of rules; every 2 years.
And unlike car companies, there are 3rd party parts makers, sellers and repairshops.

Most you you weren't playing, or even old enough to play when the long awaited 40k Vehicle Guide was released for 2nd ed. It had all of the stats and profiles of every vehicle for 40k. 30 days, yes 1 month after it was released, GW released the new 3rd rules.

That means when the vehicle book was getting layed out for the printer, sent to the printer, printed and distributed; 3rd ed was also.
GW knew the book was going to be worthless. It advertised the book in WD for monthes. Then the next month, when 3rd ed was released, all 2nd ed stuff was ignored and didn't even excist.

So back to you car analogy.
You go buy a new car, and go back for you free oil change after 30 day at the dealer; the service manager says, sorry, we stopped carrying that vehicle. We no longer have parts or can service for it. Maybe some 3rd party sellers has parts. Please leave the premises.

[JohnHwangBT]

By your logic a car company should be able to repair and supply parts for any car they've ever produced.

Same for washing machines, refrigerators, boats....

You've got an apple, oranges, and bananas there...

Car companies (by law?) are required to produce spare parts and provide service for at least 10 years. If not under warranty, the Customer pays for the parts and service. So if you look at the GW model of supporting a model that the Customer buys for the current Codex that the Customer paid for, the analogy holds pretty well. GW's support cycle is 4 to 10 years, depending if you bought something popular (SM = 4 years) or not so much (DE = 10+ years).

Washing machines & refrigerators use some very common basic parts. For example, the washing machine door sensor switch is sold as 3 variations of the same part, and appears to be used in practically every single washing machine made for the past decade. IOW, that switch is a GW slottabase. The rest of the machine will differ, of course.

Boats are often custom build. Any service / support will be at custom rates, assuming you can find someone who can do it. Think Forgeworld here.

[JohnHwangBT]

@kutrock - you've sold all of your GW stuff yet?

If you haven't, you should.

[kturock]

@kutrock - you've sold all of your GW stuff yet?

If you haven't, you should.

I'm working on it.

What I don't sell I'm keeping for other game uses. Only a few things, mostly old RT stuff and maybe a couple of LotR.
The couple strays I keep will be for RPG.

Look my ads with best offer; what metal doesn't get sold will be melted down to make bullets for my black powder pistols.

The plastics have a very limited use.