GW's continued scam [rant]

[reegsk]

But, again, I still think that some of their resources could be better spent elsewhere, and that if they're going to release something, they should be sure that's the direction they want to go with it, and not change their mind on it 2-3 years later.

I would definitely agree with that. Some sort of consistency would definitely serve them well in the long run. I think one of the main problems, as mentioned earlier, is that there's such a turnover in their creative positions that a new guy might just not like something the last guy thought up and get rid of it, then the next guy really liked said thing, thought it never should have gone away, and brings it back.

[blackspade]

I have been playing GW games for over 20 years now and have seen their business models change during that time at least six times. Early on there were no 'core' games. they had a variety of games that drew imagry and background from a variety of sources; Judge Dread, Damnation Ally (Dark Future/Chainsaw Warrior). They had Talisman and produced Elric minis. When they finally began to produce their 'own' background they liberally lifted from numerous sources; Fantasy is mainly LoTR and Michael Moorcock's Eternal Champion cycle mashed together, while 40K is based heavily on classic SF novels such as Starship Troopers, Dune, and again Michael Moorcock. This seems to have been a jumping off point for them to begin to expand their games based on the universe that they had cobbled together from all of these sources. Games after this period became increasingly focused on their core settings; Space Marine, Space Hulk, WHFRP, Bloodbowl, Adeptus Titanicus, etc. I have to say that in those days GW was prolific in the amount of stuff that they produced and they had agressive release shedules. But they managed to pull it off. In the early 90's though things began to change, releases slowed down and the concentration on the 40K and Fantasy became more pronounced even with the continued support of great games like Epic, Necromunda, and Bloodbowl, all of which recieved consistent support for years (like a core game!) until this period. Maybe it was just unsustainable.

Sorry for the ranble there. My point is that as far as 40K is concerned, one of the best things they released was the black army list pamplet at the beginning of 2nd edition. It had all units released up until that point in a simple streamlind format that was great! unfortunately that did not last as GW felt the need to add a <not smart> number of special rules to each army for each and every book after that. They dropped units from addidion to addition, and buffed or debiffed units, all the while missing the fundimental point of keeping the game clean and simple.

Dave

[EZ mac]

It seems to me that GW big 3 products sell more than other products because theysell more.

What do I mean? Go into a store that sells 40k and pp, I know at my store (that I run all events, work there, and have most games) you will see a minimum of 12 people either talking about 40k, playing 40k, or building 40k. So here in Monterey (a military Californian town with a awsome aquarium) when someone sees this and wants to play a mini game they will naturaly drift into our gw section and miss the big sign that says 'privateer press', 'flames of war' or something other than GW becuse someone who buys into a game wants to be able to play.

Gw is the power in the mini market becuase they are so big, unless somehow I can get the new recruits into my store to see similar numbers of wm games going on then it collects dust.

I honostly hate Gw and all of it's games and have said this to someone who asked my OPINION on the new spacewolf stuff. I flat out expressed my annoyance of GW and how they love to power creep, price gouge, not have FAQs (jaws of the whatever the F***, for turnaments), and have some of the dumbest, laziest rule sets ever made (I roll more dice = I win...yay!!!) with zero tactical elements, I was reprimanded by the owner because I made this person (that jumps at every overpowered thing gw makes) not want to jump at space puppies.

Pp is a cool company, with a FAQ that is updated semi frequently, or at least you can ask Kevin or whomever is on the boards, good prize support, bits bits and bits, and did I mention a FAQ?

Pp also releases (or did prior to mkii) all of the rules for the factions at the same time instad of power creep also known as ... Marine flavor, non marine flavor, non marine flavor, marine flavor... Every 3-6 months with the new books being over the top and having the 'old' crudy units to suddenly become like gods. Example assault cannon from 3rd ed to 4th... Suddenly tornadoes replaced multi melta speeders... And now? I see multis much more than tornadoes.

If GW sold all codex's at the same time and actually playtest real lists and not underpowered lists it would make for q few much happier players.

My reasoning of not dumping GW entirely is that I love painting them and I do like playing on occasion but needing a degree in gw rules is not something u should need to play a 'fun' game. Gw has rulesets to sell miniatures and does not have a miniatures to sell rules, they want cash and so figureS model sales will make up for poopy rules.

Oh and there totally is some minimum orders. In order for a store to get a better discount on GW stuff you need some of all 3games (we have bare min of lotr for this reason), you also get x amount of prize murchandise, and freeish shipping. Oh and direct order only stuff sucks, we can't carry Pedro, Lysander or alot of the sure sellers for a game that we almost have to sell to survive in a place were the average cost for a house/rent is 3.3x the national average in The US (1350 for a 2bed! Cheap right?!)

I really like GW fluff and especially models but rules? Yeah not so much. I do like to play a game or 3 but to anyone who says that Gw is the premier game company... Wow get out from under that rock and play like u got a pair.

[GMMStudios]

EZ Mac - You are welcome to your opinion but you are stating it like fact.

I actually left GW before I really started painting, for about two years. I was with PP from the time they only had box starter sets. I can say that company also does just as much shady stuff as GW. I was friends with a few of the BIG Press Gangers at the time (who have long since left the company) and I saw/heard a lot of the stuff a player today wouldn't know.

So I have since stopped playing that game although I do like to paint the models, they are nice in their own cartoony way. But to say that either company is flat out better is not true. PP does their small company wierd stuff and GW does their big company wierd stuff.

And BTW, Play like youve got a pair cant be used in an arguement anymore, see- plastic models.

[GMMStudios]

ANd personally I agree with the store employee/owner who got mad at you. How would you like it if someone walked in to where you work and told your boss "Oh don't bother with that EZ Mac guy he's just terrible."

In an albeit valiant crusade to learn the gaming community where you play, you took food off that guys table.

[kturock]

ANd personally I agree with the store employee/owner who got mad at you. How would you like it if someone walked in to where you work and told your boss "Oh don't bother with that EZ Mac guy he's just terrible."

In an albeit valiant crusade to learn the gaming community where you play, you took food off that guys table.

Hey, GMM.. get off your high horse and re-read the 2nd sentence in the 2nd paragraph.

"What do I mean? Go into a store that sells 40k and pp, I know at my store (that I run all events, work there, and have most games) [emphasis added].

He works there. True he isn't the owner, but well knows the GW BS.

I've heard it for over 10+ years at the FLGS that has carried GW products at least 3 different times; I know 2 times have been with a GW contract. [once upon a time they even had their name in the listings in White Dwarf.]

PP is a different sytem of rules. It's more individual minis/models rules. They also have a couple editions, but I'm not familair with it to know what changed between edition.
I'm almost positive they haven't declared any minis/models unplayable, and removed rules/stats for them from the books; unlike GW.
I don't play PP because gaming in this area is mostly nil; any system, and I don't have the time to play. Since I don't have the time, I don't try to have the $ to buy it to sit on a shelf.

On-line gaming has changed gaming. Now you can play anytime. It's cut into the FTF gmaing. I don't think anything will stop FTF.

[mrrshann618]

I once upon a time joined that faceless masses that was online gaming. At that time I worked nights and had very little face time to begin with.
However I never stopped collecting and playing the occasionaly game.

Now that I'm older, it has been about 5 years since I worked the overnight, I have come to enjoy the face to face time that these games bring.
The biggest problem I now face is being able to get all the games in that I would enjoy. Becuase of this I have simply stuck to the game that I have known for ages, and I've also recruited many into this game as well.

GW HAS gone downhill since my introduction at the beginning of 2nd ed. The game has continuously become less and less of a tactical game in my eyes. There have been improvements to bring back some of the tactical feel. However tactics have been, in my oppinnion, sacrified to make it a quicker game to deal with.

I personalyl wish they did no do such a huge jump away from 2nd that this current version of the game has become. I liked the eb and flow of the tactical skirmish game that I remember my group playing (We did not play hero-hammer)

[GMMStudios]

Hey, GMM.. get off your high horse and re-read the 2nd sentence in the 2nd paragraph.

"What do I mean? Go into a store that sells 40k and pp, I know at my store (that I run all events, work there, and have most games) [emphasis added].

He works there. True he isn't the owner, but well knows the GW BS.

Well I apologize if I came off as high horse, but the fact that he is an employee doesn't change anything. He is still costing the owner and the store money because he can't leave well enough alone and let a guy buy what he wants. If the guy is into GW and likes buying the new stuff, then let him, why should anyone else care? There are people that enjoy driving Hybrids and people that enjoy driving Hummers (pick your poison) but I don't heckle them or go to the lot and try and convince people not to buy them. Just because your opinion of a product = bad doesn't mean someone whose opinion = good is uninformed or uneducated. I live and breathe minis games and it is my living, so my opinion that GW games are fine and dandy and so are PPs is an educated opinion, not the opposite.

I'm not trying to say that either company doesn't have its problems (once again) what I am saying is that to pound on one or the other with hate like your opinion is fact is not warranted or deserved in either companies case.

PP is a different sytem of rules. It's more individual minis/models rules. They also have a couple editions, but I'm not familair with it to know what changed between edition.
I'm almost positive they haven't declared any minis/models unplayable, and removed rules/stats for them from the books; unlike GW.

I dont consider this a problem. I don't know of any models that are totally unproxiable that I would like to have back.

I mean come on, what is TOTALLY unusable at this point? Maybe a couple of squat guns that dont translate well to IG? A Nid model that is a bad sculpt anyway? I dunno.

But I'm of the opinion that if something is dropped to make the overall games quality better, great. I don't see it as punishing us, but there will always be people, in anything in life, that see change as punishment no matter what or who is doing it.

[EZ mac]

ANd personally I agree with the store employee/owner who got mad at you. How would you like it if someone walked in to where you work and told your boss "Oh don't bother with that EZ Mac guy he's just terrible."

In an albeit valiant crusade to learn the gaming community where you play, you took food off that guys table.

who did I take food off the table off? The owner (yes I felt bad when I learned he didn't want to play pups), or me the only worker? When someone askes

This guy came in for 2straight weeks when I was working and talked non stop on how perfect the space puppy book is, how fun it was going to be to "finnaly be able to be competitive in the game". he then asked me about what I liked about pups...I effectivly said that the sp pups were either extremly op, badly written , but probly both. He then tried to argue with me that that I was wrong I tried to argue my point and then he left. I had at that point been the only one in our store to read the book more than once, play a game (proxy) with them, and have any experience with the new ones.
If u get bent from one person not likeing your army or calling it op then u shouldn't play.

The people I refer to have gw blinders onthat quite litterally will say "40k is the best game ever" those opinions are the ones I hate. I just realy really really really really don't like a company that pushes simpler and simpler rule sets that have 1-2 extremly irritating rules that are one of those "really? Why are these here?" then not FAQ a very simple question on interaction...it's just lazy a not, and I said I like pp for the ability to ASK and RECIEVE q/a. Wow alot to expect.

Yeah no more play like u got a pair just like no hitting someone with a juggernaught in a sock

And I don't think that I said pp is the best company ever I just really prefer the rule set that they sell. the first post i posted was at 1;30AM or something which i had ment to be more onion than fact.

[GMMStudios]

who did I take food off the table off? The owner (yes I felt bad when I learned he didn't want to play pups), or me the only worker? When someone askes

The owner, since I assume you are paid hourly, the same no matter who buys what or how much.

The people I refer to have gw blinders onthat quite litterally will say "40k is the best game ever" those opinions are the ones I hate.

But why? Its just an opinion. Im sure there are people that would dislike your opinion that GW is bad.

[EZ mac]

who did I take food off the table off? The owner (yes I felt bad when I learned he didn't want to play pups), or me the only worker? When someone askes

The owner, since I assume you are paid hourly, the same no matter who buys what or how much.

The people I refer to have gw blinders onthat quite litterally will say "40k is the best game ever" those opinions are the ones I hate.

But why? Its just an opinion. Im sure there are people that would dislike your opinion that GW is bad.

Apparently they do.

However if I ask someone if they want to demo any other game and they say "why would they want to when gw is so super sweet already?" or if they have ever played any other game besides 40k and the say no then how can they argue on game design or mechanics faults that the game that they cherish like it was part of their family has?

The blinders come up when I'll be talking to one of the regs that also plays other games and we start talking about systems and effectivly come to the conclusion that gw is lazy. The random dude that has only played gw for like 1 yr will then interject on how super sweet the rules are.... So how does a gw blind blind payer argue for/ against gw?

And I highly doubt I'm in the minority for people against gws practices.

[starslayer]

This thread has gotten to be quite entertaining.

[GMMStudios]

So how does a gw blind blind payer argue for/ against gw?

What? That is so loaded Im not touching that.

BTW you can sub in PP for GW in your post there and get something just as common...

[GMMStudios]

So how does a gw blind blind payer argue for/ against gw?

What? That is so loaded Im not touching that.

BTW you can sub in PP for GW in your post there and get something just as common...

{quote]
And I highly doubt I'm in the minority for people against gws practices.[/quote]
BOTH anti PP and anti GW are WAY in the minority its just that they make sure their voices are heard. If it was true that more people hated GW than loved their games they wouldn't be in business.. For every one person that goes online and gripes there is an LGS full of people chilling and rolling dice having a good time.

I know there are larger examples I just cant think of one at the moment.

[kturock]

GMM said:
I mean come on, what is TOTALLY unusable at this point? Maybe a couple of squat guns that dont translate well to IG? A Nid model that is a bad sculpt anyway? I dunno.


Minis/models unsuable in GW rules as of right now:
Squats, Chaos Dwarves, Hybrid Genestealers, imperial guard jet bikes, at least half a dozen named characters.

Minis/models that have gone and come back after 1-2 years:
Skaven Doomwheel, harlequins.

That's all I can think of at the moment, since I just woke up and am on my way into work.

But the count is well over 100 figures and several hundred dollars.