Backout: Adhesivespatula

[BITZJUNKIE]

As this site’s cornerstone is built primarily on people keeping their word, I have to open this backout report due to the current circumstances that surround a trade that adhesivespatula has appeared to back out on with me recently.

Simply put, this was going to be a suprise for my daughter. Not a loss really as I’ll just go to the LCGS in town and get some of these items to replace what never showed up. At this juncture, it’s the principle of the thing...


Original post:

Subject: W: D.Eldar, Brets, Dwarfs, Misc H: WH, DH, OK, BoC, Nids

adhesivespatula wrote:
Hey BT! I mainly prefer trades but if the price is right I have Paypal. Pics of anything are available upon request. *Note* I will NOT buy Dwarfs, but I will trade for them. I would prefer to trade the Beasts of Chaos army for army, but I am willing to break them up if the need be.

Let’s get right down into it!

WANT

Dark Eldar

Wyches (please let me know what weapons the model has)
Warriors (please let me know what weapons the model has)
Warp Beasts
Ravagers (please let me know what weapons are on it or if you have others)
Raider Transport
Wych Archite
Wych Dracite
Reaver Jetbikes

Dwarfs

Warriors (please denote if they are BFSP)
Thunderers (please denote if they are BFSP)
Miners (please denote if they are BFSP)
Ironbreakers

Bretonnia

Pegasus Knights

Miscellaneous

Bolt Throwers of ANY race or edition
Chaos Dwarfs

HAVE

Tyranids

20+ Hormagaunts (painted/based)
20 Gargoyles (NOTE! These are converted models. Painted/based)
1 Carnifex (old edition, painted/based, “dakkafex” setup)
I also have a non-GW modeled Hierophant Biotitan and Harridan. Both are the appropriate size and are well suited for friendly Apocalypse games. Both are painted.

Witch Hunters/Sisters of Battle

18 Bolter Sisters
4Veteran Superiors (bolter and power weapon)
2 Veteran Superiors (combi-melta bolter and removed arm) - this allows for you to make it a power weapon or chainsword
1 Veteran Superior (combi-stake bolter)
5 Heavy Bolter Sisters
1 Canoness’s/Palantines
1 Inquisitor and retinue plus familiar
1 Vindicare Assassin
1 Calidus Assassin
3 Priests (las pistol and close combat weapon)
3 Priests (las pistol and power weapon)
16 Seraphim
2 Seraphim (hand flamers)
3 Seraphim (inferno pistols)
2 Sister Superiors (bolt pistol and power weapon)
4 Sister Superiors (plasma pistol and power weapon)
2 Immolators (old edition, great condition)
3 Rhinos (old edition)
20 Zealots (converted from Empire Militiamen)

Daemon Hunters

5 Grey Knights (1 w/ Inferno)

Ogre Kingdoms

6 Bulls
4 Leadbelchers (painted/based)

Beasts of Chaos - all of these are painted and based, winners of the 2008 Recon “Best Painted” award
24 Gors (2 full command squads - musician, standard, champion)
16 Ungors
12 Bestigors (full command squad - musician, standard, champion)
8 Warhounds
2 Bray-Shaman
1 Chaos Giant (his human is not painted, it was added on later)

PMs - oldest to newest:


Re: W: D.Eldar, Brets, Dwarfs, Misc H: WH, DH, OK, BoC, Nids
Sent: 07/16/09
by BITZJUNKIE

Hi and welcome to the forums!

I have some DE warriors: assembled only, some in bitz, or some NoS (limited quantities) with either hand weapons, splinter rifles or splinter cannons. How many do you need?

I MAY be able to add 1-3 NoS DE jetbikes as well, but let me look and make sure tonight .

I am probably looking at something from the following to round out current squads

3-6 Bolter Sisters
2-5 Heavy Bolter Sisters
5 Grey Knights

Thoughts?
Rick

Re: W: D.Eldar, Brets, Dwarfs, Misc H: WH, DH, OK, BoC, Nids
Sent: 07/16/09
by adhesivespatula

I would take as many as you have Trying to make a huge army. Once you know how many bikes you have we can make deal, just let me know.

Kyle

Re: W: D.Eldar, Brets, Dwarfs, Misc H: WH, DH, OK, BoC, Nids
Sent: 07/16/09
by BITZJUNKIE

Hi Kyle!

Thanks for the followup. That’s good news, as I do have a fair share.

Let me make a short list this weekend after the dig in the studio and we can go from there on Monday morning (I work 4 10’s, M-Th)?

Can you hold the few bolter sisters, all the heavy bolter sisters and the grey knights until then? Are they all complete? What conditions are they in?

Thanks again!
Rick

Re: W: D.Eldar, Brets, Dwarfs, Misc H: WH, DH, OK, BoC, Nids
Sent: 07/16/09
by adhesivespatula

Sure, I will be happy to hold them - the only thing that will make me trade them is a large amount of Wyches, so I wouldn’t be worried lol. All are complete and in great condition, almost all of them are primed, and I think a couple painted (poorly) but nothing some Simple Green couldn’t alleviate Just let me know as soon as you got a count on your models.

Thanks!

Kyle

Re: W: D.Eldar, Brets, Dwarfs, Misc H: WH, DH, OK, BoC, Nids
Sent: 07/16/09
by BITZJUNKIE

Thank you Kyle.

Plan on a list first thing monday morning. Who knows? I may be able to add a little more to that list with some careful excavation - LOL!


Rick

________________________________________________________________
Re: W: D.Eldar, Brets, Dwarfs, Misc H: WH, DH, OK, BoC, Nids
Sent: 07/20/09
by BITZJUNKIE

Okay Kyle..... here’s the short list

I have a NiB raider, at least 2 NoS jetbikes, 25 warriors (mix of NoS, clipped from sprue and assembled with no primer / paint), and a metal wych.

The only problem I have encounterd is that I wasn’t able to get an accurate count of my sisters to get you my exact needs , so I’ll have to finalize tomorrow morning.

Re: W: D.Eldar, Brets, Dwarfs, Misc H: WH, DH, OK, BoC, Nids
Sent: 07/20/09
by adhesivespatula

No worries at all Rick, just give me a nice broad list of things you need and I’ll see what I can come up with

Re: W: D.Eldar, Brets, Dwarfs, Misc H: WH, DH, OK, BoC, Nids
Sent: 07/21/09
by BITZJUNKIE

Whew!!!

Got my nuns with guns all sorted and have some idea of what I’ll need now ! Last time they were used, no one put them all back ...

as I mentioned before, I have:

a NiB raider, at least 2 NoS jetbikes, 25 warriors (mix of NoS, clipped from sprue and assembled with no primer / paint), and a metal wych.

... and here’s my list. Ultimately, I guess I’d view these in groups, with preference to trade given to the red, then blue, then green. Based on what you have left thought, we may be able to trade a few things from different groups

6 Bolter Sisters
(aiming / firing or grenade throwing position preferred)

4 Heavy Bolter Sisters

1 Veteran Superior (combi-stake bolter)

5 Grey Knights

6 Seraphim

2 Seraphim (hand flamers)

2 Seraphim (inferno pistols)

1 Sister Superior (bolt pistol and power weapon)

1 Inquisitor and retinue plus familiar

2 Immolators (old edition, great condition)

6 Bolter Sisters


Thoughts?
Rick

Re: W: D.Eldar, Brets, Dwarfs, Misc H: WH, DH, OK, BoC, Nids
Sent: 07/21/09
by adhesivespatula

I will gladly trade anything on this list. I modified it a tad to show what I currently have with some notes. Let me know what you would like for all of your stuff - I would prefer retail for retail.

2 Bolter Sisters - (aiming / firing) - semi painted

4 Heavy Bolter Sisters

5 Grey Knights - semi painted.

6 Seraphim - all primed on square bases.

2 Seraphim (hand flamers) - primed and on square bases for some reason.

2 Seraphim (inferno pistols) - these are primed but on square for some reason.

1 Sister Superior (bolt pistol and power weapon)

1 Inquisitor and retinue plus familiar - Crusader, Chirgeon, Sage, Gun Familiar, Familiar and Penitent are painted Inquisitor is primed and the flamers for arms is semi-painted.

1 Immolator (old edition, great condition) - painted

6 Bolter Sisters - primed

Just wanted to go into great detail so there are no surprises. Let me know what you would like

Kyle

Re: W: D.Eldar, Brets, Dwarfs, Misc H: WH, DH, OK, BoC, Nids
Sent: 07/22/09
by BITZJUNKIE

Sounds good. I’m glad to know what’s still available with the respective run down on conditions !

Do you think:
5 Grey Knights
2 Bolter Sisters (aiming / firing)
4 Bolter Sister (primed)
2 Heavy Bolter Sisters
1 Seraphim (hand flamers)
1 Seraphim (inferno pistols)

Sounds good for:
1 raider + 8 warriors (raider is NoS, warriors assembled only)
16 warriors (mix of NoS, bitz, assembled only)
2 jetbikes (NoS)
1 metal wych (stripped)
1 vect prisoner (stripped)

I also have 16 more warriors that are due to be stripped that I can add if you’d like to trade for the immolator. It’s just a thought .

Figured we’d handle our own shipping too.


Thoughts?
Rick

Re: W: D.Eldar, Brets, Dwarfs, Misc H: WH, DH, OK, BoC, Nids
Sent: 07/22/09
by adhesivespatula

Sounds great, and I will definitely throw in the Immolator for the extra warriors - could always use more warriors! As soon as I get your shipping info I will send these out USPS Priority with DC. My info is

Kyle Stout
XXXX SW XXXnd Street
Gainesville, FL XXXXXX

Re: W: D.Eldar, Brets, Dwarfs, Misc H: WH, DH, OK, BoC, Nids
Sent: 07/22/09
by BITZJUNKIE

I’m great with that too... Deal!

Just so you understand that they aren’t in terrible shape (that’s why I bought them to begin with). They do need stripping and have various paint jobs

I stripped a few others already and they turn out pretty well as the primer that was used didn’t seem to etch itself into any of the pieces. For the hard to reach areas, a toothpick and toothbrush does WONDERS

As you mentioned before, just being perfectly honest so there are no suprises!

My addy is:
Rick Simmons
XXXX South XXXXXXXXXXX XXXX
West Valley City, Utah
XXXX-XXXX

I’ll send the same shipping method when they arrive and forward the DC when it’s available

Many thanks Kyle!
Rick

Re: W: D.Eldar, Brets, Dwarfs, Misc H: WH, DH, OK, BoC, Nids
Sent: 07/22/09
by adhesivespatula

Excellent! Just a random bit of modeling wisdom I have found - if you can get your hands on a braces (like for teeth) cleaner, do so. I have never seen anything work so well and getting in those crevices of models. Anyways, I appreciate your honesty, I will try to ship today if I can duck out early.

Thanks!

Kyle

Re: W: D.Eldar, Brets, Dwarfs, Misc H: WH, DH, OK, BoC, Nids
Sent: 07/22/09
by BITZJUNKIE

Well I’ll be!

Great tip - now I just need to find some!!

I have been using super clean (or castrol super clean) for mine. Takes a little longer with built-up layers, but really does a good job as long as you have gloves .

No worries - slide it into the post whenever you can.

I may be able to secure some extra dark eldar in the near future, so stay tuned!


Rick

________________________________________________________________
More Dark Eldar??
Sent: 07/22/09
by BITZJUNKIE

I may have landed a deal for 20 to 40 more warriors NoS.

If the numbers of warriors is fruitful, I’d be looking at these for sure:
2 Heavy Bolter Sisters
6 Seraphim - all primed on square bases.
1 Seraphim (hand flamers)
1 Seraphim (inferno pistols)
1 Sister Superior (bolt pistol and power weapon)
2 Bolter Sisters - primed
1 Inquisitor and retinue plus familiar - Crusader, Chirgeon, Sage, Gun Familiar, Familiar and Penitent are painted Inquisitor is primed and the flamers for arms is semi-painted.

Ideally, when you have a moment, shoot me a list of what you have left and we can hedge something in from there if you’re interested.

I’ll have the deal started on the 31st (payday) and can get a better idea of what I can do exactly!


Rick

Re: More Dark Eldar??
Sent: 07/23/09
by adhesivespatula

I’ll tell ya what, if you can somehow come up with some Raiders, I’ll just send you the rest of my Sisters of Battle. Here is list of what I have left, not including the models you want. I could really, really use some more raiders or jetbikes and either Sybarites or Succubusses with Agonizers. Let me know what you think, and if you could get some of these in. Until then, I will put all these models on hold for you.

18 Bolter Sisters
3 Veteran Superiors (bolter and power weapon)
2 Veteran Superiors (combi-melta bolter and removed arm) - this allows for you to make it a power weapon or chainsword
1 Veteran Superior (combi-stake bolter)
4 Heavy Bolter Sisters
1 Canoness/Palantine
1 Inquisitor and retinue plus familiar
1 Vindicare Assassin
1 Calidus Assassin
3 Priests (las pistol and close combat weapon)
3 Priests (las pistol and power weapon)
16 Seraphim
2 Seraphim (hand flamers)
1 Seraphim (inferno pistols)
2 Sister Superiors (bolt pistol and power weapon)
4 Sister Superiors (plasma pistol and power weapon)
2 Immolators (old edition, great condition)
3 Rhinos (old edition)
20 Zealots (converted from Empire Militiamen)
5 Grey Knights

Re: More Dark Eldar??
Sent: 07/23/09
by BITZJUNKIE

Thanks Kyle!

Let me see what I can do about that .

The rough part is that you probably already know raiders are getting fairly hard to obtain. Even jetbikes are getting scant . Ah well, the new codex and models SHOULD be available soon enough!

I’ll try to nail down something more and keep toy in the loop for better or worse!


Thanks Kyle,
Rick

________________________________________________________________
Re: More Dark Eldar??
Sent: 08/04/09
by BITZJUNKIE

Hey Kyle!

Just checking in. I’ll have another 40 DE warriors headed this way soon . Have you been able to send out the sisters and GK for this trade?

Thanks for the tip on the braces cleaner - it’s the bees knees!


Rick

________________________________________________________________
Re: More Dark Eldar??
Sent: 08/05/09
by BITZJUNKIE

Hey Kyle,

Just checking in to see if everything was a go for the trade still as I haven’t been able to catch up with you in a few days. I have all of your DE stuff packed and ready to hit the post.

Drop me a PM by 4 pm (MST) today, if you are still game for this?

Thanks again!
Rick


... and that’s all of it! I know that the last 2 PMs were received and read. Nothing else has been communicated either way since the 5th.

With his recent posts in the fantasy and 40K forums that showed my tentative trade items still avalable, I elected to PM him on the 5th (the last PM) to see what was going on

I know that he has traded with at least 2 more forum members in the meantime, and I am checking with BOTH of them to see if adhesivespatula has traded items that were to be mine with either of them. I’ll update this thread with any results.


What will take care of this?

Hmmm... depends on what I find out from the last Btownie that he traded with.

Until I find out more from the last trader he dealt with, I’d settle for trade completion with a PM’ed DC by 8am MST, Monday, August 10th. I will gladly ship his out with DC and a leave a positive ref by Wednesday, August 12th and consider the case closed.

If I find out that adhesivespatula traded items to someone else that were supposed to be traded with me, it’s going to be a whole different path that I follow.

[MagickalMemories]

Wow.
First off... that is one EXCEPTIONALLY formatted report. I wish more were like that.

The bad news is that I'm not really sure this will end up qualifying as a backout, Rick.


Everything was fine, and it was a complete trade, until you changed it.
When you added in that you had more warriors coming, and asked about him adding in more, it reopened negotiations.
Once they were reopened, I don't see where he agreed to a NEW finalized deal.

Did I miss something?


Eric

[BITZJUNKIE]

Thank you MM I had to make it readable before anything else.

As I mentioned that it was a deal for everything up to that point in time, I believed that trade was set in stone.

In all honesty, I thought that his additional offer (trading the remainder of the army if I could secure another bunch of DE models instead of warriors) could, in fact, be an additonal trade for the pieces not secured by the first.

I can certainly see that it can be taken either way though!

[BITZJUNKIE]

Eric... if you do feel that this does not truly qualify, please make the needed removal or lock it down as necessary.


Rick

[MagickalMemories]

Rick, I appreciate your understanding and willingness to let it drop, if needs be.

At this point, that is simply a preliminary opinion, based on one person's reading.
We'll leave it up for now, and I'll run it by the rest of the staff to see what the common thought amongst staff is.

Eric

[Haight]

For what it's worth, any counter offer to an offer invalidates the original offer in the eyes of the law.

Therefore if you counter offer, the original offer made to you is nullified, and you cannot go back and accept (or re-affirm prior acceptance).

Once you counter offer, the other party is completely within their rights to refuse, and not reinstate the previous offer.

Just a note, because i keep running into this with people haggling with me - an offer is made by one of us, it is rejected but countered, and then the counter is rejected. The party originally making the counter then assumes the original offer is still valid - that is a false assumption, and shouldn't be made.

This is true even with an accepted contract that a party then attempts to modify after the fact: this factor immediately nullifies the original contract.

You should look at a counter offer exactly as what it is: rejection of the intial offer, but then becoming the offeror yourself. I think people get haggling confused with valid offers, and how they relate to contracts (which, essentially, is what Btown is all about).


-- Remy

[JohnHwangBT]

A lot of this depends on how the offers are structured.

For example:
A: Trade X for Y?
B: OK, I agree to trade X for Y. Also, if you have Z, I'll trade that for Q.
A: Sorry, no Z, we'll just do X for Y.
...

In this example, there is a deal to trade X for Y. This has been mutually agreed, and would be enforcible, even though the trade of Z for Q was not agreed, because Z for Q was not a condition or inclusion. Z for Q becomes a second, separate deal.

OTOH:
A: Trade X for Y?
B: OK, I agree to trade X for Y.
A: You have Q?
B: Trade X&Q for Y&Z?
A: Sorry, no Z, I just want X for Y.
...

In this example, the original agreement scraps because negotiations changed due to the rebundle. B has every right to stop here and not go back to the original deal because things reopened.

[Haight]

A lot of this depends on how the offers are structured.

For example:
A: Trade X for Y?
B: OK, I agree to trade X for Y. Also, if you have Z, I'll trade that for Q.
A: Sorry, no Z, we'll just do X for Y.
...

In this example, there is a deal to trade X for Y. This has been mutually agreed, and would be enforcible, even though the trade of Z for Q was not agreed, because Z for Q was not a condition or inclusion. Z for Q becomes a second, separate deal.

OTOH:
A: Trade X for Y?
B: OK, I agree to trade X for Y.
A: You have Q?
B: Trade X&Q for Y&Z?
A: Sorry, no Z, I just want X for Y.
...

In this example, the original agreement scraps because negotiations changed due to the rebundle. B has every right to stop here and not go back to the original deal because things reopened.

Your first example however is actually an example of two contracts being (or attempted) made at the same time - one which is agreed to, accepted, and therefore enforceable, and a second which is offered, but declined. Trade one (x for y) is valid, and the fact that trade two cannot be completed has no bearing on the validity of trade one, because it is its own seperate contract with no contingencies in place upon trade one being completed only if the parties complete trade 2.

Still you are definitely right - in that first one x for y is an agreed trade / contract.

Spot on with example two.

I find that people get goofed up on how contracts work more when they start haggling back and forth, not realizing that what you are doing is counter offering: when doing so the original offer doesn't act as a safety net for when you push the other party too far with your haggles, and they back off.

[Ironhide]

I see John's first example as what happened here. However, adhesivespatula's non-response throws everything off kilter.

[Norseman]

For what it's worth, any counter offer to an offer invalidates the original offer in the eyes of the law.

Therefore if you counter offer, the original offer made to you is nullified, and you cannot go back and accept (or re-affirm prior acceptance).

Once you counter offer, the other party is completely within their rights to refuse, and not reinstate the previous offer.

Just a note, because i keep running into this with people haggling with me - an offer is made by one of us, it is rejected but countered, and then the counter is rejected. The party originally making the counter then assumes the original offer is still valid - that is a false assumption, and shouldn't be made.

This is true even with an accepted contract that a party then attempts to modify after the fact: this factor immediately nullifies the original contract.

You should look at a counter offer exactly as what it is: rejection of the intial offer, but then becoming the offeror yourself. I think people get haggling confused with valid offers, and how they relate to contracts (which, essentially, is what Btown is all about).

This is not EXACTLY correct.

I know because it is what I do for a living. I deal with this is contract negotiation every day.

If someone opens negotiations for an item, lets say, I want to buy a item.
I offer $100.00 the seller agrees. It is a deal. If either comes back and tries to change the original offer the deal is nullified. For instance if I then re-offer $95 for the item or if the seller says no I reconsidered and want $105 for it. In this instance Haight is correct, the original deal is nullified.

However...

If I approach a seller and we make the original deal of Item A for $100.00 and then I notice They have Item B that I want for $50 it does not then nullify the original deal that has been made.

I do this everyday. I come to the table with Items A through Z available to me in my negotiations. If the other party agrees to items A through R for something I WOULD have paid A through Z... I still have Items S through Z, and I want to get as much as I can for them, a simple offer to the other party if he would want these additional related items would seem obvious. If he decides not to offer anything for the remainder of my items I want to trade he is still on the hook for the original deal.

[rant]
If there is one thing that I hate that happens on the board is guys that either complete a deal or 95% complete a deal and then goes unresponsive. Then after 20 PMs and 2 weeks of waiting you finally give up on trying to contact them. You know they are reading the PMs but don't have the common courtesy to PM you and say "Hey buddy another dude offered me more so I gave him the deal." That is all it takes... Yeah I might be disappointed but, 2 weeks of my time isn't being wasted.
[/rant]

[Haight]

I'm not sure how it works in Canada, so i'll defer to you on that.

In America, your posited situation would either be a stipulation to the original contract, or it would be a seperate contract altogether.

[adhesivespatula]

Couple things here, my apologies for not getting back to you, I've been quite busy with other stuff and this is really not on my list of priorities. Furthermore, I was never contacted in regards to your procuring of any additional Dark Eldar vehicles, so at that I considered the trade to be void. I would also have note that I held these models on reserve for you specifically, even when I had much more lucrative offers. If this is such a huge deal, I was unaware and again, I am sorry. You have my honest and heartfelt apology. I really mean it.

[gwaddict]

Interesting thread here. As a prior law school student I can open up my contract books and put us all to sleep but I would hate to torture folks. Plus it seems to be handled already. A more interesting aspect of all this is the negative by spatulas name so I checked out the feedback section. My question is in regards to the apparent retaliotory negative feedback that spatula left for his last trade partner. Maybe I am way off base here but that seems like two bad trades in a short period of time.

[MagickalMemories]

My question is in regards to the apparent retaliotory negative feedback that spatula left for his last trade partner. Maybe I am way off base here but that seems like two bad trades in a short period of time.

Thank you for not boring us with contract law.
I'm so @nal, I'd probably read the whole thing... Then, promptly goige my eyes out with a fork. LOL


As for the quoted bit (and this is a comment, not an admonishment), it is irrelevant to this issue. It is possible that the negative was deserved and it is possible that it was retaliatory. If the individual involved (the one who received the ref in question) wishes to complain about it, he has 30 days from the date it was left to do so by PMing an Admin (and provide corroborating information).

Eric

[BITZJUNKIE]

Thank you for all the support and information guys. Special thanks to Eric for leaving this up through the weekend as well.

___________________________________________

I promised that I would share any information I had... and I was able to get a run-down of the other trader's list that Adhesivespatula sent him:

1-canoness
4-sister supieriors
33-sisters
4-heavy bolter sisters
4-multi-melta sisters
4-heavy flamer sisters
5-melta guns sisters
6-flamers sisters
2-stormbolter sisters
1-imagifer sister
11-seraphim sisters, 2 flamer and 1 supierior
9-repentia sister, 1 mistress
1-immolator/OOP
2-rinos/OOP
1-excorcist

___________________________________________

In my eyes, I had a single trade with him. I then wanted to have a pending trade with him for additional items that I should have made more clear. After all, if there are multiple PM interpretations, there shouldn't be!

I am seeing that we both should have been more precise with our communications. Particularly, at the juncture when I changed the PM title to reflect the additional trade.

I'm still glad that I made a report if only to get some feedback for a case such as this. Ultimately, as I am not out of anything but my time, I will consider myself lucky and the case closed.


Rick