A feedback question.

[redstarone]

"JoeSchmoBT" (with his NEW membership and 0 rating), suddenly giving out a bunch of bits and pumping his ref up into the double digits worries me.

Why not?

Others have done this very thing specifically to pump their Feedback rating up, and it has been a recommended ref-building strategy.

Anytime I hear "rep-building stratagies" I think shifty. I know its not used that way but the fact it can be is a worry I can do without. Ive worked hard to build my rep to where it is now. I didnt go complete simple trades just to build it up, even if I see so many doing it. That said, I wont tell people to now do that as everyone has their own opinion and way to do things. I just choose to do it the harder way.

Just my 1 cent.

---Matt

PS I agree completly with Ironhide, "joeshmo" should just post their own bitz ad if they want the rep that bad.

[Stanislav]

Rep building strategy= nefarious

In my opinion (and it is only that so that this doesn't get out of line), someone with a couple decent trades and a bunch of bit references for funny pics is just paving the way to go rogue.

As much as you get into discussions trying to make Bartertown a better and safer place, how do you condone it? It's like shooting all of your other arguments in the foot John.

Rep building "strategies" are like rules-lawyering or get-rich-quick schemes. Bound for someone to get screwed over at some time.

Again, in my opinion, it ain't all about the refs. Building up good will for your future trades should be incentive enough. Sure you can say that I can say that since I have a high enough rating, it doesn't matter to me. Does it? Yes, it sure does.

[Adunaphel]

recommended ref-building strategy

Huh???

You trade. You treat your trade partners in a way you would wish to be treated. You leave references that give insight into your fellow trader (to either tout that trader as an excellent person or to warn the Bartertown community of trouble).

That's it.

After a while (if you have been decent to your fellow Bartertowners), you have a sufficient number of references that "give a picture" of the type of trader you are. End of story.

Personally, I have NOT gotten references for more bits trades on "that" thread than I have gotten references. I don't care. It's about helping out your fellow gamer. NOT about "building refs" or asking the gamer you are helping out to pump up your numbers.

I don't like not getting references from actual trades but asking or demanding a reference for a "pay-it-forward" completely defeats the whole idea.

IMHO

Karl

[locust]

Well geez.. This went a little beyond the scope of what I had intended. I see what you guys mean about the "ref. building strategy" being a crappy thing to do. What with that business with the_trader and all. I was just curious to see if the standard of references applied there as well, though I didn't think it would. I see some are quite adamant about not leaving a ref. to avoid "padding", which I perfectly understand. I can also agree that in some instances, like if someone has a very hard to find bit and gives it away, leaving a positive ref. would be a cool thing to do for them. Or if someone went way above and beyond on a task that a positive ref. wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing. But I definitely agree that asking for a ref. is stupid uncool. I was mainly just asking to confirm a feeling that I had, that's all.

Thanks,
Greg.

[Stanislav]

Greg,

You are right, there are always "extenuating" circumstances, and asking or even expecting a ref is uncool.

[MagickalMemories]

"JoeSchmoBT" (with his NEW membership and 0 rating), suddenly giving out a bunch of bits and pumping his ref up into the double digits worries me.

Why not?

Others have done this very thing specifically to pump their Feedback rating up, and it has been a recommended ref-building strategy.

Aside from yourself, John; by whom?
Not by me. In fact, I find it to be a horrible ref-building strategy, from a "scam-prevention" p.o.v.

Think about it... and I'm not slamming you, just comparing your opinions on 2 topics.

You advocated that we shouldn't necessarily trust an extablished online retailer who was selling memberships to allow us to buy at a HUGE MSRP discount, because of the scam potential.

In THIS instance, someone could boost their refs into the 20's or 30's, easily, by emptying their bits box, then proceed to scam people for thousands of dollars, based on that rating. Shoot... the_trader did it with what? A six or eight?

Granted, the SCOPE of scam potential is differnt... but it's actually a greater potential in THIS instance than the other.

KWIM?

Eric

[MagickalMemories]

Well geez.. This went a little beyond the scope of what I had intended. I see what you guys mean about the "ref. building strategy" being a crappy thing to do. What with that business with the_trader and all. I was just curious to see if the standard of references applied there as well, though I didn't think it would. I see some are quite adamant about not leaving a ref. to avoid "padding", which I perfectly understand. I can also agree that in some instances, like if someone has a very hard to find bit and gives it away, leaving a positive ref. would be a cool thing to do for them. Or if someone went way above and beyond on a task that a positive ref. wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing. But I definitely agree that asking for a ref. is stupid uncool. I was mainly just asking to confirm a feeling that I had, that's all.

Thanks,
Greg.

Well, first off... Things often go farther than we thought they would. LOL Such is the nature of Internet discussions. What I like about this thread, and others like it, is that it's constructive. Even if we're "arguing" different p.o.v.'s, we're doing it in a manner that is a good exchange of information.

I, too, think that the extenuating circumstance would warrant another look. If I'm looking for free Possessed Winged backpacks for free (which I always am LOL), and someone gives me one for free (when bits sites sell them for $5+), that guy MIGHT just get a reference outta me.

If I'm looking for a beakie helmet, though... not so much.

Eric

[locust]

Well, first off... Things often go farther than we thought they would. LOL Such is the nature of Internet discussions. What I like about this thread, and others like it, is that it's constructive. Even if we're "arguing" different p.o.v.'s, we're doing it in a manner that is a good exchange of information.

I, too, think that the extenuating circumstance would warrant another look. If I'm looking for free Possessed Winged backpacks for free (which I always am LOL), and someone gives me one for free (when bits sites sell them for $5+), that guy MIGHT just get a reference outta me.

If I'm looking for a beakie helmet, though... not so much.

Eric

I agree wholeheartedly with this. I'm all about constructive arguing. I'm also still considering leaving a positive ref. due to the fact that the bits I was looking for are no longer available, and don_mondo was willing to part with them. Plus this thread might actually help someone else out with that thread. I just didn't expect this level of response for this topic. I figured it'd be a couple of "It's O.K. to leave one if you feel you got what you needed." Or "Refs. in this section are usually frowned upon." But more is always better. On a side note I think I managed to blind Adunaphel with the pic I took that started this whole thing. Hehehe.

Thanks,
Greg.

[MagickalMemories]

Keep in mind:

Since I'm the 'tasker' that locust is performing a task for, I'll just mention that I don't expect feedback for this.

Eric

[locust]

True. But just because he doesn't expect it doesn't mean that I can't decide to leave it anyway. That's why I said I was considering it.

[mrrshann618]

That particular thread I always just assumed it was a " pay it round and round, Debase yourself and pictures for fun and ... just cause"

I've only done a small number, I never expected any kind of feedback, more of a "I dump stuff I simply do not want in exchange for a laugh, and eventually something I might need out of their "I really don't need it" Box."

I think I gave one ref, simply becuase they gave me one.

[JohnHwangBT]

"JoeSchmoBT" (with his NEW membership and 0 rating), suddenly giving out a bunch of bits and pumping his ref up into the double digits worries me.

Why not?

Others have done this very thing specifically to pump their Feedback rating up, and it has been a recommended ref-building strategy.

Aside from yourself, John; by whom?

You advocated that we shouldn't necessarily trust an extablished online retailer who was selling memberships to allow us to buy at a HUGE MSRP discount, because of the scam potential.

In THIS instance, someone could boost their refs into the 20's or 30's, easily, by emptying their bits box, then proceed to scam people for thousands of dollars, based on that rating. Shoot... the_trader did it with what? A six or eight?

Eric

If you go through the bitz thread and my refs, I got a single Positive out of it. So clearly, I must have used this to pump my refs. By a whole +2 net. *After* I had a 100+ rating.

My primary early strategy was risk management by focusing on smaller trades up to $25 value. The resulting slightly higher rating is a nice bonus. Based on the scams that still occur on Btown, I think that any new trader should do their best to minimize their risk. If I were new, I wouldn't change my basic strategy one bit, aside from perhaps being even *more* conservative due to typically increased scamming in a down economy.

As for whom, I'd have to check, but giving bitz / models for Feedback was suggested a long time ago by someone far more established than I. By the time that I saw this suggestion, my Feedback was high enough that I wouldn't have to consider using such a strategy.

I don't trust bitkingdom because we're talking about a potential six-figure scam with zero traceability via PayPal for $1000+ per person to be scammed. I still can't help but wonder if the $1500 limit ties to some kind of Federal / statutory claims threshold.

On Btown, a 20-30 rating is pretty meaningless unless you're a total n00b. Now if he's going to give away 50+ bitz or models to get a 100 rating, I'd be pretty impressed. That's like $200 in shipping alone, not counting the bitz / models. That is a *lot* of up-front money to throw away if you're going to run a scam on Btown.

The_trader scammed with a total of 3 Positive refs from 2 different people for a total rating of +6. And these were legit trades. So, he spent a net of perhaps $10 to pull his scam. Given the demonstrated stupidity / gullibility / foolishness of so many Btowners, I have to wonder why we even bother with ITL ratings at all... A lot of the scammed people have high enough ratings that they should have known better.

[peacemystic]

The_trader scammed with a total of 3 Positive refs from 2 different people for a total rating of +6. And these were legit trades. So, he spent a net of perhaps $10 to pull his scam. Given the demonstrated stupidity / gullibility / foolishness of so many Btowners, I have to wonder why we even bother with ITL ratings at all... A lot of the scammed people have high enough ratings that they should have known better.

Thats the one thing with the whole "The_trader" deal i don't understand...one guy had a rating of almost 100....why on earth was he sending this guy money first...a good deal of them had better ratings.

[Adunaphel]

It's the notion that if you are buying/selling then THIS site works like eBay and the buyer pays first. I think that is crazy but I have seen a WHOLE lot of traders (including experienced ones) who seem to think that there is some sort of difference between trading and selling.

Yes, I did it with reveriestudio and learned my lesson. I still use paypal (even though it blows), and sometimes I will even send money first. But, I am careful about the traders I do this with. I have turned down a WHOLE lot of trades because the sellers wanted the money up front.

John, I don't think that anybody was pointing a finger at you for using the free bits thread to pump up your rating. But, I still don't understand all this "strategy" talk. It sounds a little shifty. I just came on here a long time ago (first as Kaz and now as Adunaphel) and traded...

Karl

[MagickalMemories]

If you go through the bitz thread and my refs, I got a single Positive out of it. So clearly, I must have used this to pump my refs. By a whole +2 net. *After* I had a 100+ rating.

Sorry, man, but I don't think it's fair to be like that to me. I didn't attack you or make claims that you did anything of the sort. I simply asked questions and made statements based on statements you made... and, if that WASN'T directed at me, then I apologize. It seemed to be, considering that it came right after a quote from me.

My primary early strategy was risk management by focusing on smaller trades up to $25 value. The resulting slightly higher rating is a nice bonus. Based on the scams that still occur on Btown, I think that any new trader should do their best to minimize their risk. If I were new, I wouldn't change my basic strategy one bit, aside from perhaps being even *more* conservative due to typically increased scamming in a down economy.

Yours was similar to mine. I had a couple larger trades early on, but I was desperate to get GW merchandise for trading (I was just getting into 40K, so didn't have much), but they were with more established traders.

As for whom, I'd have to check, but giving bitz / models for Feedback was suggested a long time ago by someone far more established than I. By the time that I saw this suggestion, my Feedback was high enough that I wouldn't have to consider using such a strategy.

Honestly, you're the only one I recall saying that this was a recommended ref-building strategy.

I don't trust bitkingdom because we're talking about a potential six-figure scam with zero traceability via PayPal for $1000+ per person to be scammed. I still can't help but wonder if the $1500 limit ties to some kind of Federal / statutory claims threshold.

I can semi-understand your point. Only "semi," because there's MORE than zero traceability. He has a brick & mortar shop where he's been for... Well, I don't remember EXACTLY, but I recall taht the time was measured in YEARS. As for the limit, I don't know. I know it becomes a felony after just a few hundred.

On Btown, a 20-30 rating is pretty meaningless unless you're a total n00b. Now if he's going to give away 50+ bitz or models to get a 100 rating, I'd be pretty impressed. That's like $200 in shipping alone, not counting the bitz / models. That is a *lot* of up-front money to throw away if you're going to run a scam on Btown.

I disagree that 20-30 is meaningless. In fact, I think that 30 is a nicely established history. Obviously, those in OUR rakings are even BETTER... but 30 is nothing to be scoffed at. Look around in the trading sections and look at the number of people with less than 30. With the commonality of "lower rating ships first," someone with a 30 could do a LOT of damage.
As for the up front expenditure of $200... Look again at the_trader. With only a 6, he managed to scam more than $2000 in cash. CASH! So, if his whole deal cost him $200, he'd be looking at a 1000% return. I wish my (LEGAL) investments could do 1/10th of that in ten times the amount of time he put into it.

The_trader scammed with a total of 3 Positive refs from 2 different people for a total rating of +6. And these were legit trades. So, he spent a net of perhaps $10 to pull his scam. Given the demonstrated stupidity / gullibility / foolishness of so many Btowners, I have to wonder why we even bother with ITL ratings at all... A lot of the scammed people have high enough ratings that they should have known better.

I'm not too fond of calling people stupid, myself. Actions are stupid. People rarely are.
Still, though, you do make a good point. WAY too many people got scammed by this guy. If they'd adhered to the "ratings" protocol that many of us do, it wouldn't have happened to this degree. It's that much more support for the "sale=trade" crowd among us. Anyone with, say, a 10 or less, I can understand being scammed (to a degree). Compared to a 6, there isn't a huge difference. Once they hit 12, though (DOUBLE his rating), I'm thinking that the protocol should have come into play.

Something else, though... He made over $2000 on a $10 investment, per your estimations (and 3 trades). Look at what the guy with the $200 investment (above) could have done, presuming all the numbers stayed proportional. One more reason that PIF's shouldn't get ref's, IMO.

Eric