Warmachine question

[craasher]

Hello everyone. My gaming partner and I have decided to take a break from our large games of WHFB and go a smaller game route so our games dont take so long. We have decided to start playing Warmachine and start very small. We just decided this last night and dont have anything purchased yet just he is going to play Cygnar and I am going to play Khador. What I was wondering is I saw all these different rule books and stuff on their site and I was wondering what kind of stuff do we need to be able to play a game. We are planning on like I said starting very small possibly just with the 3 and 4 model battlegroup sets and paint them all up before we play a game. But besides that whats the difference between all the different rule books and someone also said I need markers and stuff too. Can anyone help us out with your vast stores of knowledge..

I just want to know what to ask before before i start looking for a trade or purchasing things. Thanks a lot.

[jagavahn]

IF you buy the starter boxes(battle boxes) they include quick start rules that cover the basics. Battle boxes are relatively balanced to go up against each other. You can play fun games with them, but battle box only games get a stale relatively quickly.

All of the essential rules for the game are in Prime:Remix. If you want to have all of the rules for all of your models you can pick up the faction deck for your given faction.


To Start, I would recommend

Prime:Remix
Khador: Battle Box
Cygnar: Battle Box

[JohnHwangBT]

If you want to speed up your games compared to "tournament-style" WFB, you can always bring the points down to 500-999 pts. via Warbands. This is still somewhat Fantasy-like, just much smaller-scaled, with much less "fancy" stuff. Usually, groups will use Warbands to start people into playing Fantasy, but you can use it to speed things up considerably.

If you like skirmish play, you might do better to simply play Mordheim. Pick up the book secondhand (or download the living rulebook), and just play there. A single $35 box of 12-16 models is plenty enough for making a Mordheim force to last an entire campaign.

If you like the look of Warmachine / Hordes, and just want something different, then you would do just fine to pick up any of the Warmachine / Hordes starter boxes (they're all compatible with each other), and just play by the Quick Start rules. Ultimately, if you like WM/H, you can always get the rulebooks, or even a used copy of Prime / Primal. The caveat is that, PPP has set up WM/H to be a real treadmill of continuous rules expansions that you would need to purchase, if you choose to stay current. It's not like WFB where you buy the main rulebook, your army book, and your models - you need to buy the main rulebook and *several* expansion books, as your army units are scattered among the rules expansions as new units and new versions. Plus, I understand that PPP has a serious "Codex creep" issue...

[locust]

To start with, I agree with jagavahn. In order to play you need to get the Prime Remix book. (Its got all of the updated rules.) The battle boxes come in at appx. 350pts and are the best way to learn how to play, plus it keeps the games small and fast. If however you want to go beyond the battle boxes, you'll need to get the other expansion books. Unlike GW, PP doesn't put out army books for specific factions, pirates are an exception. Each expansion contains units for each faction. It will also help to have some markers, glass beads or some such, my friend used to use dice, to keep track of your Warcaster's focus. (magical power)

But besides that whats the difference between all the different rule books and someone also said I need markers and stuff too.

The different books are their expansions. Each one contains new units and such for each faction. Start in this order, though Prime Remix is the only one you need to start playing.
1: Prime Remix
2: Escalation
3: Apotheosis
4: Superiority
5: Legends

Plus, I understand that PPP has a serious "Codex creep" issue...

It's not really a "Codex Creep" as they don't really have codex's and all factions are represented in each book. There is however a large power jump between books. Stuff in the latest book is typically more powerful than the last book. So if you want to play and stay at a competitive level you need to get the newest stuff. Though units from all books are still viable and useful regardless of how you play. I myself have been playing Cryx since the game first came out several years ago. (nearly 5000pts worth) Hope this helps you out some.

[mrrshann618]

Not sure if this is the case anymore. The warcasters (i think that is what they were called, I haven't played in like 3+ years) grow in power, and have different models for each. You used to be able to field all the version of the same figure at once as technically they are diferent figures. It isn't codex creep, it is more of a "timeline progression" as I understand it.

I tried the game a few times. Menoth was may favorite, but overall the game didn't exactly sit right with me. I'm alerting you about the "bigger, better, faster, stronger" figures becuase if one member of your group escalates things you are going to have to keep up as well. This, to me, kinda felt like those CCG games where the person who could collect more could win easier. This may not have been the actual case, but that is how the Warmachine group here kind played "keep up or don't bother" attitude.

Though i do have to say I liked the concept, and some of those jacks looked damn cool.

[craasher]

If you want to speed up your games compared to "tournament-style" WFB, you can always bring the points down to 500-999 pts. via Warbands.

If you like skirmish play, you might do better to simply play Mordheim.

Well Right now we are playing some skirmish games and are going to start our Mordheim Bands up but we are mainly looking for some different games to play as well. We kinda settled on Warmachine because we both thought the jacks looked so cool and it looked like a different feel to the game.

The different books are their expansions. Each one contains new units and such for each faction. Start in this order, though Prime Remix is the only one you need to start playing.
1: Prime Remix
2: Escalation
3: Apotheosis
4: Superiority
5: Legends

So if we started with Prime Remix and the battlegroups we could pick up each additional book over time and have more choices of units in each book? If so then I think this is exactly what we are looking for. With what mrrshann said we plan on keeping our armies the exact same size so we wont get into the I can buy stuff faster than you. Correct me if I dont have my thoughts right on this though are the jacks pretty much the same point cost? Like a Heavy warjack from one faction and a heavy from another are close to the same points? So we could start off with the Remix books and the battle group then we could pick up Escalation and both pick a unit out of there that are the same point cost to add to our army? That way we grow at exactly the same rate.

Thanks a lot for all the help around here yall. We dont really have a store anywhere near us that we can go to and ask the salespeople questions. The only one that even halfway carries miniatures is a comics store and the guy can really only tell you who makes the stuff because no one really plays any of the games.

[MagickalMemories]

It's not really a "Codex Creep" as they don't really have codex's and all factions are represented in each book. There is however a large power jump between books. Stuff in the latest book is typically more powerful than the last book. So if you want to play and stay at a competitive level you need to get the newest stuff. Though units from all books are still viable and useful regardless of how you play. I myself have been playing Cryx since the game first came out several years ago. (nearly 5000pts worth) Hope this helps you out some.

"Codex Creep" is a term that started, IIRC, with 40K. basically, it means that the army gets more powerful with each new expansion.
In essence, what you described still sounds like it, except that ALL the armies jump in power with every expansion, rather than one at a time.

Pity.


Eric

[JohnHwangBT]

We kinda settled on Warmachine because we both thought the jacks looked so cool and it looked like a different feel to the game.

Note that Jack-heavy armies only work at low points values, like the starters. Ultimately, infantry are better.

Maybe AT-43, if you can stand prepaints?

[Linrandir]

*ahem*

First, disclosure statement: I am a Press Ganger for Privateer - a position roughly akin to the old GW Outrider demo team. All following statements are based on my experience only. Take 'em for whatever you think they're worth.

Second:
To play, you really only need the battle boxes. To expand the game, pick up Prime: Remix, which is an updated version of Prime and contains all the rules introduced before Legends, the most recent WM book. If you want to play competitively - IE do the tournament circuit thing at GenCon, etc. you should pick up all the other books as stated above. If you do NOT want to play competitively and instead wish to be a recreational player (which, for the record, I am) then proceed however you wish. Most people proceed as per the book releases.

The notion of Power Creep has been raised, and frankly, I don't think it's as big an issue as it's made out to be. It's certainly not how I remember 40k when I played it in 3rd and 4th editions (Tyranid and Eldar codices especially!). I think the playtesting is, in general, handled with overall game balance in mind and I don't really think that a Warcaster from Legends is uber-super-more powerful than one from Prime: Remix. I say this because I've seen Prime warcasters rip the ()@*# out of Escalation or Superiority warcasters. I think it's more an issue of expanding options than it is sheer power creep - for example, the Unit Attachments and Weapon Attachments. These are add-ons you can supplement existing, usually Prime, units with that make them even scarier than they already are, but the downside is that they cost more points (and some are %)@* pricey). Each army has unique strengths and weaknesses, as well as ways to exploit the weaknesses of the other factions. It all makes for a very interesting tactical game.

Third, getting into some specifics:
I disagree that infantry are ultimately better than warjacks, but that depends a lot on force composition and the skill level of the players involved. There are more infantry numerically, sure, because to compare one warjack to one infantry dude would be absurd. Warcasters are of course a different story, but they're not relevant here.

This leads into a bit of a rant on combined arms strategy and tactics, but that all depends how far you want to get into the game.


I think I'll stop now before this turns into a rehash of conversations had ad nauseum on the PP forums.

[jagavahn]

Lin, I didn't know you were a PG too.

To expand on the above.

Prime Remix contains all of the rules from Escalation, Apotheosis, and Superiority. So none of those books are absolutely necessary unless you want all of the fluff(which in my opinion is very very good). The faction decks contain all of the rules for all of the models in a given faction up until legends, so if you only want the rules for your faction you can find them there.

[Linrandir]

Yes I am. Been on something of a hiatus lately due to work and wife's school and 2 year old, but hey. I try.


To the OP: Have we answered your questions?

[craasher]

Yes yall have explained everything quite nicely. I'm looking forward to picking up the battlegroups and trying Warmachine out. One other question I have though is do yall find the armies to be pretty similar in abilities? What I mean is there a Privateer Press favorite army that seems to do better than others? (*cough* *cough* GW Chaos Demons)

We have pretty much picked our armies based on the descriptions and which models we thought looked cooler, and we play mainly for fun but I thought I would at least ask.

[jagavahn]

For the most part, things are balanced. There are some models that do some pretty harsh things, but every faction has them and everything has something else that can beat it.

Ctyx tends to have a reputation for being overpowered, due mainly to the fact that they specialize in breaking the normal rules and they are an army designed to weaken/limit/deny their opponents abilities.

[Linrandir]

This is true. Cryx is very much the dirty tricks & denial faction. Each one of their warcasters has a spell that causes some kind of stat reduction or ability denial. With the Battle Boxes, Deneghra's Crippling Grasp spell + Withering feat can impose up to a -5 stat penalty on a model. It's gruesome and makes assassination runs *extremely* viable.

[locust]

Ctyx tends to have a reputation for being overpowered, due mainly to the fact that they specialize in breaking the normal rules and they are an army designed to weaken/limit/deny their opponents abilities.

Always with the Cryx bashing. Sigh....

Rules were meant to be broken! Suffer our cheesy wrath!

This is true. Cryx is very much the dirty tricks & denial faction. Each one of their warcasters has a spell that causes some kind of stat reduction or ability denial. With the Battle Boxes, Deneghra's Crippling Grasp spell + Withering feat can impose up to a -5 stat penalty on a model. It's gruesome and makes assassination runs *extremely* viable.

Yup. Ya gotta love Dirty D. But on the flipside Cryx is extremely fragile, hard to hit, but when you do watch the Cryx player weep. I know I do. All factions have some way of out cheesing the others. For example: I have a personal HATRED (a strong enough word doesn't exist to describe my loathing) of Commander Adept Nemo. I advance forward, Nemo happens (pops feat) and I lose, the end. (I use lots of bonejacks) But Cryx also has the ability to dish out some serious damage in the form of Lich Lord Terminus, Goreshade and Asphyxious, along with the Deathjack, and now Nightmare. So you have to be on your toes with a Cryx player who knows how to tweek an army. As I once told a friend, the game is usually won be the guy who can best manipulate the system. The game is also very unforgiving of mistakes. One slip-up can cost you the game. More-so even than 40K.