Mail Fraud FAQ?

[MiddlePillarPathPainting]

So, I've seen references to mail fraud on BTown a few times - it being a felony, contacting the local police dept. etc. and a situation has developed between us and a client regarding an army and a final payment though PayPal. BTW, this didn't occur here on BTown, but I thought Btowners would be knowledgeable about it.

PayPal's less than helpful, so it's looking like it's time to involve the law - anyone got a link to a FAQ or a concise chunk of "how-to" info on how to proceed in matters such as these?

The Readers' Digest condensed version is this: Client paid deposit, we painted an army, client paid final payment, we shipped army express, he was incommunicado for a week, filed a dispute via PayPal contesting the final payment amount, saying he never rec'd the army, we provided verified tracking info to prove army had been delivered, he finally admitted army had been delivered, he supposedly contacted PayPal to close the dispute. Now, two weeks later, the payment has been violently sucked out of our PayPal balance, and PayPal says it was the client's bank's doing, not PayPal, and that we need to contact the client directly to resolve it.

Aaaaaaand, wouldn't you know... the client's home # is out of service.

[porkuslime]

Find a post from Insidius.. he has all these linkies in his signature file.

-Porkuslime

[MiddlePillarPathPainting]

Awesome - found the USPS Mail Fraud site and form... I'm giving the guy 48 hours to resolve this amicably and then, as they say in wrestling...

it's on.

[MagickalMemories]

I don't have any links, but I can tell you what I know.

1) Looks like mail fraud. I hope you kept your communications. I say "looks like" because it involved him lying about not receiving the stuff via mail

2) Ask PayPal for proof. According to their rules, what they say happened can't happen. I don't know of ANY bank procedures that would be relevant in this case. A "Reg E" request form wouldn't work. It's for Debit & Credit card purchases only. I've tried it myself for a similar situation (except that I REALLY didn't get my stuff). I was refused because payPal purchases - even through debit cards- don't qualify because of the way they're processed. A balance transfer can't be recalled, unless he claimed that PayPal didn't have his permission to make that transfer... which PayPal would/should fight, because it's directly between them and him at that point, and doesn't involve you. Fight PayPal on this

3) This could be bank fraud, as well. Depending on what information you can get in regards to #2, above, you may or may not be able to prove it.

4) From the USPS site:

If consumers believe they have been defrauded by a scam, the Postal Inspection Service wants to hear from them. These crimes can be reported by calling 1-800-372-8347.

They might be able to offer advice

5) I did a quick internet search: http://www.usps.com/postalinspectors/fraud/
http://www.usps.com/websites/depart/inspect/usc18/
http://www.lectlaw.com/def2/m001.htm [url]http://mail_fraud.totallyexplained.com/[/url]
http://www.osbar.org/public/legalinfo/1076.htm

Hope this helps.

Eric

[MiddlePillarPathPainting]

Eric,

Your comments and link were very helpful. I'm going to try PayPal again, and if that fails, escalate to a mail fraud claim. BUt now I'm not certain it's a mail fraud case - the original PayPal dispute was an "unauthorized user" claim, not a "never rec'd item" claim, so I think there's some shenanigans going on at the buyer's end - used his wife or mom's credit card / PayPal account without permission sort of thing.

He did receive the army, P.O. and he (via email) confirm reciept, but somehow, the PayPal user was able to recind the payment 2 weeks after the original dispute had been removed and "case closed." Ack.

Anyways, thanks again to you and everyone else who chimed in.

[MagickalMemories]

Unauthorized user is interesting....
FYI, I'm in banking, so I've experienced thse claims from the banks' side.

... When you make that claim with a bank (forgive me... it's been a while, so some of the specifics have been forgotten)... I'm pretty certain that is one of the options on a Reg. E Request Form... You have to sign an addendum that states, basically, that no member of your family received benefits from the transaction.

I'm presuming you kept the Delivery Confirmation #? If so, look it up on the USPS site and save a screenshot of the page... Also, maybe print a copy, as well. That'll be your proof that it arrived. Did you keep your USPS receipt? I hope so. The receipt shows (generally) where the items went (city and Zip, IIRC).

You can prove via your retained information (email string, receipt, DC#) the name of the person who contracted with you and made the payments. Did they make the initial payment with the same PayPal account? That begs the question of why they didn't dispute the initial payment.

I suggest a "strongly worded" email to the PayPal email address, as well as any other email addresses used for communication, stating the facts as they happened, as well as outlining the proof and documentation you retained during the course of the transaction. Advise them that you will seek legal financia recourse, as well as federal Bank and Mail Fraud charges. Tell them you are willing to happily act as a witness in any criminal or civil trial against the perpetrators, even if you have to travel to do so.

Give them X days to respond (I suggest no more than 3) and Y days to pay you again (I suggest a week, tops). Also, I'd inform them that, should this repayment be revoked from your PayPal balance again, you will resort directly to criminal and civil charges without warning. You could remind them, as well, that any civil (small claims) charges filed will be in YOUR legal jurisdiction, which would require them to travel to (wherever you live) or lose the case and, should that happen, you will file a lien on any property in their name.

Kick their @$$.

Eric

[MiddlePillarPathPainting]

Eric,

Yep, kept the delivery confirmation info, have all the email correspondance with buyer - there's absolutely no doubt that the package was delivered - I actually talked to the mail carrier and PostMaster in the buyer's home town PO, and the mail carrier remembers dropping the package off!

PayPal is a dead end - since I didn't ship to a confirmed address (buyer had no confirmed address), I'm s.o.l., according to them. I can't reach anyone at the PayPal email address - I keep getting a Mailer Daemon notice saying "mailbox unavailable" and I even went so far as to track down a home phone # via Google phonebook (has the correct address with the PayPal user's name) - but everytime I call? "That number is out of service."

My wife suggested a registered letter to the shipping address via snail mail, so this morning I'm going to at least try that.

I've emailed the buyer twice, with civil yet STRONG language, and notified him of my desite to resolve this without legal proceedings, but made him aware that I will follow though 1000% if need be.

He's got about... 32 hours to respond before this goes nuclear.

Eric... thanks again, man - you've really helped me think this through, and provided me with alot of useful info.

[MagickalMemories]

...and everyone who didn't already know it learned a lesson here...

"Never ship to an unconfirmed PayPal address."

As much as it's against my nature to say it... Sometimes you just shouldn't be a "nice guy."


Oh... and no thanks are necessary... but, since you did... You're welcome.

Eric

[JohnHwangBT]

1) Looks like mail fraud.

2) Ask PayPal for proof. According to their rules, what they say happened can't happen.

I don't know of ANY bank procedures that would be relevant in this case.

A balance transfer can't be recalled, unless he claimed that PayPal didn't have his permission to make that transfer...

1. It *is* mail fraud.

2. PayPal only requires that *you* follow the rules. They do not follow their own rules, and can seize (or freeze) accounts and funds as they see fit. if they get caught not following due process (by the courts), they will simply change them in the "Terms of Service". They may or may not provide any notice to you. Not that it matters, as it is a Contract of Adhesion.

PayPal is NOT a bank. They refuse to be chartered as one, or follow banking rules and regulations. Your deposits are not insured in any way, shape, or form.

Surprisingly, a balance transfer *can* be recalled as "fraud". All the sender needs to do is claim to his bank that he was defrauded. This is a slower process than credit card reversal, but it can be done.

PayPal doesn't need any permission to confiscate funds from you. Once you give them a bank account number, the can, and will, take funds as they see fit.

Basically, PayPal uses the Seller to indemnify themselves against any loss or fraud. Despite not providing the Seller with any tool or information to determine the validity of the Buyer or their payment.

Because PayPal isn't a bank, and users are pretty powerless, PayPal can get away with this. That is why PayPal refuses to become a bank. It's very shady and unethical. And it's why I refuse to do business with them.

[JohnHwangBT]

FYI, I'm in banking, so I've experienced thse claims from the banks' side.

... When you make that claim with a bank

I suggest a "strongly worded" email to the PayPal email address,

I'd inform them that, should this repayment be revoked from your PayPal balance again, you will resort directly to criminal and civil charges without warning. You could remind them, as well, that any civil (small claims) charges filed will be in YOUR legal jurisdiction, which would require them to travel to (wherever you live) or lose the case and, should that happen, you will file a lien on any property in their name.

Keep in mind that PayPal is *NOT* a bank, so what you suggest does not apply.

The e-mail is important, but I wouldn't expect it to go anywhere.

Stating a course of action could be backfire - if they're scum (and they are), they'll say you're blackmailing them.

Better to consult with a lawyer before moving too far ahead.

[MagickalMemories]

[quote=JohnHwangBT"]Keep in mind that PayPal is *NOT* a bank, so what you suggest does not apply.

The e-mail is important, but I wouldn't expect it to go anywhere.

Stating a course of action could be backfire - if they're scum (and they are), they'll say you're blackmailing them.

Better to consult with a lawyer before moving too far ahead.[/quote]

You are only partially correct.

PayPal may not be a bank, but what I suggest does still apply because they have to commit fraud with THEIR bank in order to do what they're doing. They're lying directly to their own bank in order to have the funds revoked. I'd seen people try it LOADS of times back when I was responsible for taking the claims from them.
Typically, if it's a family member or themselves who did it, they "want to think about it" or "look into it more first" when you tell them that the bank WILL investigate and, should it turn out to have been a relative or unrelated person living in their residence, they will have to act as witness in order to get their funds back. Oddly enough, I only ever had ONE come back... and that was because it was his roommate who had stolen a LOT of crap from him.

Stating a course of action is not blackmail. Blackmail follows a specific, legally defined, structure.
They can CLAIM it, but so what? I could CLAIM that you're harassing me by disagreeing with me... that doesn't make it true.
I could CLAIM I was abducted by aliens and they probed my... Oh... Wait... That really DID happen.

Nevermind.

I do agree that a consultation with a lawyer is a good idea. Many will give you a free initial consultation.

Eric

[JohnHwangBT]

PayPal may not be a bank, but what I suggest does still apply because they have to commit fraud with THEIR bank in order to do what they're doing. They're lying directly to their own bank in order to have the funds revoked.

As I said initially, this is Fraud. There is no doubt in my mind.

[MagickalMemories]

PayPal may not be a bank, but what I suggest does still apply because they have to commit fraud with THEIR bank in order to do what they're doing. They're lying directly to their own bank in order to have the funds revoked.

As I said initially, this is Fraud. There is no doubt in my mind.

Ah.

I thought you were saying it wasn't bank fraud ONLY because of the PayPal side.
My bad.

Eric