Is this a backout? Does it warrant a BTR?

[Lormax]

I'll leave the name of the other trader out for now.

Trader posts up some stuff he has for sale, I PM.

He responds with a price, my response was that the price was a bit high.

He responds with a fair price, so my response to that was "xx amount shipped and you've got a deal. Cool?"

He responds with his paypal address.

A day later another PM from him stating that he now doesn't want to get rid of the item and that the deal is off, sorry.

To me, that's a backout. Perhaps he decided he didn't like getting rid of it at the 2nd price. Perhaps he found a buyer at the first price. Either way, to me we had a deal, which would be a backout, thus a BTR. This is my first time dealing with this so I'd like to reach out to the community as to which way to go with this. Thanks.

[JohnHwangBT]

He responds with a fair price, so my response to that was "xx amount shipped and you've got a deal. Cool?"

He responds with his paypal address.

A day later another PM from him stating that he now doesn't want to get rid of the item and that the deal is off, sorry.

OK, without seeing the e-mails, you may or may not have a case.

If he had said "Cool!" to acknowledge your offer above, then that's agreement on price. But he never actually said "Deal", and you never got him to confirm the *exact* terms of the deal (items, price, shipping, payment method, timeline).

And it's not clear whether you agreed to PayPal - his responding with a PayPal ID could just as well be a question about agreement on payment method. For example, I refuse to use PayPal, so his response would be met with a "no, but I can send you a Postal money order."

And his cancellation is *very* timely.

So I wouldn't look at it as a Backout.

[MagickalMemories]

I'm going to have to... partially... disagree.

An offer was made, then a counter was made. The given cost was agreed to, then a way to pay was provided.
Presuming there are no facts to counter this string of events, an agreement was, most certainly, made.

If you ask me how much I want for something, I say $100, and you agree to it... that's an agreement. I gave a price *which I'm obviously agreeable to), and you agreed to it. Deal made.

That being said, I don't know if I'd hit him with a thread in the back-out forum. Just because someone backs out of a deal doesn't mean they automatically need to have /have to have/should have a thread started on them. People change their minds all the time.
What's important is HOW they back out. If they guy gave a price and you agreed to it, then he fell off the face of the Earth or stopped responding to your PM's and relisted the item, that would be different. If he agrees to pay a price you're asking but never comes through with the funds... Now, we're talking...

Just for changing his mind, though... You might be being a bit overzealous. Then again, I haven't seen the PM string, so i don't know for certain.

If he relists the items, or you find out he traded them to someone else... THEN, I'd hit him with a negative ref AND a back-out thread!

Eric

[Lormax]

Thanks for the replies guys. Thought about it some more and it's not worth burning someone over changing their mind in a day. I hadn't sent funds yet so just gonna leave it as-is. I may be more reluctant to send first with this trader in the future though. Either way, thanks again for the thoughts and advice.

[JohnHwangBT]

An offer was made, then a counter was made. The given cost was agreed to,

then a way to pay was provided.

If he relists the items, or you find out he traded them to someone else... THEN, I'd hit him with a negative ref AND a back-out thread!

I see the thread like this:

John: "I got stuff for sale!"
Eric: "How about $90?"
John: "Too low."
Eric: "$100. Cool?"
John: "My Paypal is Eric@gmail'
...
John: "Never mind.'

Exactly where was the cost of $100 *agreed* to?

I see NO actual agreement, so no basis for a Negative or Backout thread. If there were an agreement, there would be an exchange note like this:

John: "Our deal is a follows: You will pay me $100 via PayPal. I will ship stuff to you via USPS mail with DC within 2 Business Days of receipt. Cool?"
Eric: "Cool."

There is a failure to clearly state the full terms of the agreement. In such a case, it is a clear mistake to take any message as implying that an agreement has been reached unless the goods or payment are actually sent.

But if you think there was an actual agreement, then the next logical message is:

Eric: "If you don't sell them to me at $100, I'm going to Neg and BTR you!"

To which I would reply:

John: "That is ITL intimidation. I'm hitting you with a Neg and BTR right *now*, and notifying Lin of potential retaliatory Feedback."

[JohnHwangBT]

I hadn't sent funds yet so just gonna leave it as-is.

I may be more reluctant to send first with this trader in the future though.

Either way, thanks again for the thoughts and advice.

If you had paid before he changed his mind, then things would be *very* different. He would probably be obliged to complete the deal.

You may choose not to deal with him at all...

My remaining advice would be to use a formal statement of any deal:

I believe we have a deal!

You are buying the following items:
1x item A (NEW in box, $ xx)
5x item B (NEW on sprue, $ xx)
5x item C (stripped, $ xx)
The total is $ xxx, and shipping is $ yyy for a total of $ zzz.

Shipping will be via USPS First Class mail with Delivery Confirmation.

As I understand it:
- you will pay me $ zzz via USPS Postal Money Order
- I will ship you the following stuff: ...

Assuming we're going forward, this is what I propose:
- you send USPS PMO and notify me of mailing date
- I confirm receipt of payment
- I ship stuff to you and provide the tracking # to you within 2 Business Days
- you confirm receipt of stuff
- we exchange Feedback

If this works, please confirm. Otherwise, if you have any questions / comments / suggestions, please let me know.

I try to use something like this on *every* deal that I do, and I find it to be very helpful in ensuring that my trades are clear.

[jlong05]

Per the rules of a official trade this would not be a backout. I however agree with MM in that an 'agreement' was made.

I had a very similar incident in which I was contacted by someone for a trade.
He inquired about the availability of items, I confirmed my item was available and with what items he had I was interested in(not what I wanted, but more of a laundry list of items I would like to get.)
He responded with the 'offer'. IE he said how about my 'item 1' and 'item 2' for your 'item'. I responded 'Its a deal' and sent my mailing address as I had the higher trader rating and indicated he needed to ship first.
When he stopped communication and disappeared I posted a BTR and was told I was in violation because the requirements of a completed trade agreement is that BOTH parties must send an it's a Deal post. As only I did that, there was no confirmation of his agreement(even though it was his offer)

So I think there is a clear guideline for trades, but there are unwritten policies that are generally accepted. For a BTR though you must have followed the FULL rules.

Sorry.

[MagickalMemories]

I see the thread like this:

John: "I got stuff for sale!"
Eric: "How about $90?"
John: "Too low."
Eric: "$100. Cool?"
John: "My Paypal is Eric@gmail'
...
John: "Never mind.'

Exactly where was the cost of $100 *agreed* to?

I see NO actual agreement, so no basis for a Negative or Backout thread.

The first problem with that is that it IS an agreement. An offer was made AND ACCEPTED, then backed out of.
The second problem with that sequence is that it doesn't match the OP's deal.
OP's would have been more like this:

John: "I got stuff for sale!"
Eric: "What do you want for it?"
John: "$100"
Eric: "$100? Sorry. It's too much for me."
John: "How about $90?"
Eric: "If it's $90 shipped, you've got a deal."
John: "Cool. Here's my PayPal address."

...
John: "Never mind. I decided to keep my stuff"

There are terms negotiations and everything there.
It definitely qualifies (see below).

Eric: "If you don't sell them to me at $100, I'm going to Neg and BTR you!"

To which I would reply:

John: "That is ITL intimidation. I'm hitting you with a Neg and BTR right *now*, and notifying Lin of potential retaliatory Feedback."

Depending on the wording of the PM, it might be ITL intimidation, or it might just be a "fair warning." Admittedly, I can't find the thread, but I distinctly remember a thread where *someone official* stated that you CAN warn someone that they're facing a neg ref for backing out of a deal, but that you should be super careful (my wording, obviously. LOL) because if you say it the wrong way, it could be interpreted as ITL intimidation by the Mod/Admin staff.

As for the initial example you gave, and the one I gave here qualifying as agreements... This is from the Sticky in the BTR thread (emphasis mine):

A question that keeps coming up is "What constitutes a trade/purchase/agreement?" This is a good question and I am formally defining it now:

A Bartertown 'Trade' occurs when both parties have agreed to a transaction, be it a purchase (ie buyer-seller) or exhange of items and/or services, and have agreed to the terms of said transaction.
For example. Morlock and I agree to trade his Warmachine Cryx for my Warhammer Fantasy Chaos. We negotiate what we're trading specifically, we negotiate shipping terms, and we negotiate a time-frame for said shipping. Once we agree - and this can be as simple as "you're cool with that?" or as complex as sending a separate email that states the exact terms of everything agreed to along with a request to reply-with-agreement - the Trade is on.
If something unexpected happens, like a family emergency or unexpected deployment, it is the responsibility of the person in question to let the other party know what's happened within a reasonable time frame.

Now, based on the OP's given information, I can't be certain about the red text, but ALL of the specifics of the emboldened text have been met.
Additionally, one could viably claim that the agreed price to include shipping terms was a negotiation of shipping terms (the seller's covering it from the sale price).
As far as the "time-frame for said shipping," I don't think all of my trades have negotiated or even mentioned that. This doesn't make them non-trades.

My remaining advice would be to use a formal statement of any deal:

Good advice from a well established trader. I do something like this on every trade. I think just about all of the established traders have learned that it's the best way to go. Especially if they've been on the "wrong end" of "miscommunications."

I still think that, even though it would qualify as a back-out, leaving a neg ref or thread on it would be a bit overzealous, unless the guy shows up trying to pawn the stuff off again.


Eric

[JohnHwangBT]

Exactly where was the cost of $100 *agreed* to?

I see NO actual agreement, so no basis for a Negative or Backout thread.

The first problem with that is that it IS an agreement. An offer was made AND ACCEPTED, then backed out of.
The second problem with that sequence is that it doesn't match the OP's deal.
OP's would have been more like this:

John: "I got stuff for sale!"
Eric: "What do you want for it?"
John: "$100"
Eric: "$100? Sorry. It's too much for me."
John: "How about $90?"
Eric: "$90 shipped, cool?"
John: "My PayPal is John@gmail"

...
John: "Never mind. I decided to keep my stuff"

There are terms negotiations and everything there.

Not so, because you *changed* things to add a confirmation that I *never* made. Per the OP's summary, I corrected the message flow above. You asked "Cool?". I *never* confirmed the deal by responding "Cool." Therefore, it isn't a deal.

John: "That is ITL intimidation. I'm hitting you with a Neg and BTR right *now*, and notifying Lin of potential retaliatory Feedback."

Depending on the wording of the PM, it might be ITL intimidation, or it might just be a "fair warning."

Exactly.

A Bartertown 'Trade' occurs when both parties have agreed to a transaction, be it a purchase (ie buyer-seller) or exhange of items and/or services, and have agreed to the terms of said transaction.
For example. Morlock and I agree to trade his Warmachine Cryx for my Warhammer Fantasy Chaos. We negotiate what we're trading specifically, we negotiate shipping terms, and we negotiate a time-frame for said shipping. Once we agree - and this can be as simple as "you're cool with that?" or as complex as sending a separate email that states the exact terms of everything agreed to along with a request to reply-with-agreement - the Trade is on.

Now, based on the OP's given information, ALL of the specifics of the emboldened text have been met.
Additionally, one could viably claim that the agreed price to include shipping terms was a negotiation of shipping terms (the seller's covering it from the sale price).

Incorrect. ONLY the specifics emboldeded above have been met. The text that I have highlighted in red has NOT been met, particularly when you recognize this to be a purchase, so the payment terms and timeframe were not agreed upon. But most importantly, there was no formal acknowledgement that the OP received confirmation of an agreement.

As far as the "time-frame for said shipping," I don't think all of my trades have negotiated or even mentioned that. This doesn't make them non-trades.

That would be your risk. I set timeframes because it makes my life a lot eaier. I have done 50+ trades, all meeting my 2-BD TAT. I expect the same from my trading partner, because it's easier to say "per our agreement, you were supposed to ship by the 5th, and it's now the 15th - what gives?", rather than "dude, when are you going to ship?"

My remaining advice would be to use a formal statement of any deal:

Good advice from a well established trader. I do something like this on every trade. I think just about all of the established traders have learned that it's the best way to go. Especially if they've been on the "wrong end" of "miscommunications."

I still think that, even though it would qualify as a back-out, leaving a neg ref or thread on it would be a bit overzealous, unless the guy shows up trying to pawn the stuff off again.

It's Contracts 101 - getting it in writing is always good practice.

Even if he tries to sell the stuff, no agreement was reached, so no harm, no foul.

[MagickalMemories]

Looks like we'll have to just agree to disagree, then.

I will always see this:

He responds with a fair price, so my response to that was "xx amount shipped and you've got a deal. Cool?"

He responds with his paypal address.

as the other party agreeing to the deal by giving over his PayPal address.

The unfortunate part is that either of us, John, could be in the wrong here. The OP only gave a summation of what happened.
If, for example, the guy replied with, "Cool. Here's My payPal address," I think you'd agree it was a trade
If, however, he said something that indicated he wasn't fully committed -even while giving his PayPal address- then I'd say it absolutely WASN'T a trade."



To the OP, Lormax, could you post the entirety of the message where he gave you his PayPal address, MINUS the actual PayPal address or any other identifying information? Thanks.


Where this is concerned:

That would be your risk. I set timeframes because it makes my life a lot eaier. I have done 50+ trades, all meeting my 2-BD TAT. I expect the same from my trading partner, because it's easier to say "per our agreement, you were supposed to ship by the 5th, and it's now the 15th - what gives?", rather than "dude, when are you going to ship?"

1) What is the abbveviation "2-BD TAT" referring to? I'm not familiar with it.

2) It depends on the trader. If it's someone I know and trust, I'm not going to worry about specifics on ship date. Then again, I've never had a trade with an established trader where they didn't offer the info without being asked, anyway. Where new traders or peple I'm not familiar with are concerned... I'm with you... I always get a time frame, even if it's as generic as "within the next few days."

Eric

[JohnHwangBT]

1) What is the abbveviation "2-BD TAT" referring to? I'm not familiar with it.

2) It depends on the trader.

1. 2 Business Day Turn-Around Time

2. I have relatively few repeat trades, but even so, I still like to follow the discipline of clear trades.