How can I inquire about a trade between two other B-towners?

beowulfdahunter · Post by **beowulfdahunter** » Thu Jul 03, 2008 5:51 am

I do not want to name names, but here is my situation I painted some models for a guy. I gave him the models but never got paid. This transaction occured outside of B-town. Well a few weeks ago I see he has the items up for sale here. I pmed and asked him if I would ever see payment, he claimes he will pay me when they sell. I see on his post that the items sold, then the byer fell through, then they sold.

I am curious if the person actully got the items, I have not seen the guys name show up on the BTR, and I will not name his name so as not to slander him or get myself in trouble, but is it possible to inquire about a transaction between two other B-towners?

Lictors_LoveMachine · Post by **Lictors_LoveMachine** » Thu Jul 03, 2008 9:16 am

Holy smokes, you gave him the painted minis, didn't get paid for your work AND he's selling them to someone else? Sorry to hear this. THAT BLOWS. This is why I demand payment before I ship any work I do. Just an FYI.

I would not hesitate to email all parties involved, let the other guys [buyers] know YOU were not paid for your work AND this guy is selling stuff he didn't pay you for to them.

You should have been paid first... In MY opinion.

Timothy

GMMStudios · Post by **GMMStudios** » Thu Jul 03, 2008 10:11 am

Why did you ship before you saw payment? Did you even front shipping?

As a rule of thumb I try and trust people, but I never give someone all the cards like you did.

For what this person has done, I would not be worried about "slandering" his name. In fact it would be far from it, it would be deserved. I think you need to expose this person so whoever bought the stuff knows.

HarlequinZero · Post by **HarlequinZero** » Thu Jul 03, 2008 10:33 am

Honestly, I would PM the admins. This would be a tricky situation because of B-Town rules. Your end of the transaction didn't occur here so you can't post a BTR about it as far as I know. Essentially you're trying to use a trade/sale on here to prove that the guy is a crook in relation to a transaction that didn't occur here.

Like I said, I'd PM Linrandir or Morlock or someone high up the food chain.
Get them to issue a ruling on how to go about this so you don't wind up with a two week "vacation" out of ignorance.

Ironhide · Post by **Ironhide** » Thu Jul 03, 2008 10:46 am

Using B-Town to fence stolen miniatures. That's what this whole situation boils down to.

If it is true, because so far it is just one person saying this with no documentation to back it up. Not trying to say you are dishonest beowulfdahunter, just pointing out that you have no way to back up your story.

Anglacon · Post by **Anglacon** » Thu Jul 03, 2008 11:42 am

If you have any saved emails or proof, etc, i would send it to the guy who bought the minis and ask him to send the money to you!

( 3094 ) · Post by **porkuslime** » Thu Jul 03, 2008 12:37 pm

Ironhide wrote:Using B-Town to fence stolen miniatures. That's what this whole situation boils down to.

If it is true, because so far it is just one person saying this with no documentation to back it up. Not trying to say you are dishonest beowulfdahunter, just pointing out that you have no way to back up your story.

I disagree.. this is not fencing stolen minis.. this is selling painted minis that the artist did not get paid for.. I don't see where the OP owned the figures he painted.. he is wanting to get paid for his work, not the models themselves.

BUT, I also think some level of burden of proof falls on beowulf .. but proving that should NOT be aired here on a forum.. send the situation to Lin or Morlock ASAP, and let them be aware and give them the proofs, if warranted.

-Porkuslime

GMMStudios · Post by **GMMStudios** » Thu Jul 03, 2008 1:25 pm

porkuslime wrote:
I disagree.. this is not fencing stolen minis..

They may not be *stolen* minis per se but it is fencing. The only other words I can think of that fit are just synonyms for "stolen" anyway though.

porkuslime wrote:I don't see where the OP owned the figures he painted..

It isnt really a question of ownership.

Imagine you are a mechanic and someone comes in and gets work done. Something happens and they get the car back without paying. Then they sell the car.

What now? Heck it couldve even been planned if the guy knew he had a pay after shipping policy. easy way to get rid of minis and maybe make some money on them in the process.

Edit:

Unlike the above example it could also be said that Beo owns the paint on those models until paid and thus owns a share of those models (the value of the job)

Brandon

( 3094 ) · Post by **porkuslime** » Thu Jul 03, 2008 1:36 pm

DCToymachine wrote:
porkuslime wrote:
I disagree.. this is not fencing stolen minis..
They may not be *stolen* minis per se but it is fencing. The only other words I can think of that fit are just synonyms for "stolen" anyway though.

porkuslime wrote:I don't see where the OP owned the figures he painted..
It isnt really a question of ownership.

Imagine you are a mechanic and someone comes in and gets work done. Something happens and they get the car back without paying. Then they sell the car.

What now? Heck it couldve even been planned if the guy knew he had a pay after shipping policy. easy way to get rid of minis and maybe make some money on them in the process.

Edit:

Unlike the above example it could also be said that Beo owns the paint on those models until paid and thus owns a share of those models (the value of the job)

Brandon

Now, that is a better way of expressing what I was trying to get at. Artistically the paint job is his.. and I wonder if the original seller tried to pass it off as his own talents.. or called em pro-painted etc..

Whatever it is.. certainly dodgy..

-P

( 832 ) · Post by **MagickalMemories** » Thu Jul 03, 2008 2:09 pm

Well, bringing it back around closer to topic (not that I'm never guilty of going OT, LOL); You have yourself in a sticky situation.

I think it's wise not to name the trader publicly. I think that you shouldn't, under any circumstances short of Lin or Morlock telling you that you can. As has been pointed out, the painting deal didn't originate here, so it isn't eligible for a BTR. Since "calling him out" isn't too far from a BTR (even if not official), you'd be risking some "hot water' for yourself. I think your current course of action has merit.

That being said, something is unclear to me. Do you know who bought the minis? If you do, simply send them an email or PM. Be specific that you aren't trying to speak ill of the other trader & that you're simply inquiring. Give him the run-down that you gave us here & tell him you're inquiring to see if the purchase went through, so that you can know if you should expect to see payment from the other guy. Maybe even request that he not make the inquiry public because of the reason (BTR) that I referred to above.

--It will be a good opportunity to plug yourself, too. When the guy who bought them replies and lets you know, you can throw in a quick plug that you'd be happy to paint some units for him if he ever needs new units to match these existing ones--

That's how I'd handle it, myself... But the advice to PM Linrandir or Morlock is solid, IMO, as well.

Eric

JohnHwangBT · Post by **JohnHwangBT** » Thu Jul 03, 2008 6:01 pm

No, it's basically selling stolen goods. I.e. goods that were not paid for.

The listing should be pulled, and he should pay for them as agreed. Once he owns them, he can do whatever he wants. But if he hasn't paid for them, then he has no right to sell them on Bartertown or anywhere else. In the mean time, the OP is in effect a lienholder on those miniatures, and should have considerable say as to what can, or cannot, be done with those miniatures.

flagg07 · Post by **flagg07** » Thu Jul 03, 2008 6:24 pm

JohnHwangBT wrote:The listing should be pulled

Like e-bay took down those shoulder pads? I'm confident the admin will do what's appropriate given proof of any wrong doing.

As far as advice to the OP, there's nothing stopping you from contacting the traders involved. Just have your proof ready as I certainly wouldn't send you money based on your word alone.

If you can't back up your statements, then it's best to use this as a learning experience and plan accordingly. I'd suggest:

Buying min for them= cost of mini + 50% paint job up front
Provided mini= 50% paint job up front
No exceptions

starslayer · Post by **starslayer** » Thu Jul 03, 2008 7:14 pm

THIS TRANSCATION OCCURED OUTSIDE OF BARTERTOWN.

Maybe everybody missed this part. So I dont see what Bartertown can do.

Its NOT selling stolen property. I own a car. I have a guy paint it for me. I dont pay the painter. I sell the car.
Its theft of services.

Why arent you contacting the Police?

( 832 ) · Post by **MagickalMemories** » Thu Jul 03, 2008 7:41 pm

JohnHwangBT wrote:No, it's basically selling stolen goods. I.e. goods that were not paid for.

The listing should be pulled, and he should pay for them as agreed. Once he owns them, he can do whatever he wants. But if he hasn't paid for them, then he has no right to sell them on Bartertown or anywhere else. In the mean time, the OP is in effect a lienholder on those miniatures, and should have considerable say as to what can, or cannot, be done with those miniatures.

You know, JHBT, I really am of two minds on this one.
MY ethical side, my conscience, is agreeing with you 100% here. I mean, not on the leinholder part... A lien has to be filed against the property for that... I'm referring to what SHOULD be done ethically. tha part, I'm in agreement with.

The other side of me (the side that follows the "rules" here as best it can without letting emotions get in the way) disagrees. As the painting trade/sale services (per the OP) didn't initiate on BTown, that transaction is inconsequential to the rules of BTown (similar to a BTR). What you have here, then, is someone selling/trading models he has in his possession. If we require him to show that he has legal ownership (for lack of a better term) of these models, then we could eventually reach the point where everyone has to provide that information before posting items for sale.

I agree that it's not a LIKELIHOOD, but that doesn't, also, make it an impossibility.

That being said, I believe the point is moot as, according to the OP, the seller has already located a buyer for them.

Eric

flagg07 · Post by **flagg07** » Thu Jul 03, 2008 8:06 pm

The fact that it ocurred off site shouldn't preclude the OP from asking how to follow up. Bartertown is in no way responsible. Though the admin might not take kindly to trader A selling/trading something that is unpaid for. Sends a "pay for your products and services or keep them off our site" kind of message.

I'm sure you remember the days of TDZ. I remember a thread calling him out on Dakka which helped solidify his BS because it brought several people together from various sites. Getting the message out to several sites can help people avoid thieves like this, a good thing.

The wargames community is small enough that we can actually police ourselves within reason. Proof to Trader B might get him to back out of the deal with Trader A. Do this enough and Trader A might decide it's not worth the hassle. I'm thinking Better off Dead's $2 paperboy on this one.

Right wrong or indifferent, OP needs to provide proof or suck it up.