Should "Deadbeats" include those who don't leave r

[peacemystic]

Absolutely, Peacemystic. But that doesn't address the other half of the beef which was holding Refs hostage until your ref was first served. That's really where this conversation sprang from. What I was talking about wasn't just about shipping first.

But I seriously don't want to slag on the grognards. The few I've dealt with in trades have been professional and I've had zero trouble getting my stuff.

You know I used to be in the Holding Hostage camp,but due to debate on a different thread,i no longer am
Although i do wait until both parties have recieved there good and are happy with them.
Cheers

[CypherIsGod]

A zero rating with 500 posts is stilla zero rating, though. LOL

You got my point right there. If I see someone with even 2500+ posts, but with an 8 trade rating, it's not going to make me feel too much better than someone with an 8 trade rating and 5 posts.

And the 4 times I can remember (I'm sure there were more, but I don't remember exactly) that I was not left any feedback were all very highly rated members. Although now that people are saying that they didn't leave feedback in a situation where something happened that made it not warrant a good rating, but not a bad or neutral, I wonder if I did something wrong in my early trading days. Nobody ever said anything, so I just assumed they forgot or didn't care. There's another point... always communicate. I let a fairly recent trader know that how he packed stuff was not really good enough. I was able to fix the damage, but let him know in the future to be sure to use real packing material for a trade of that type. He thanked me for the advice, so hopefully that helped out the next guy. This was after a good reference was left, by the way.

[JohnHwangBT]

I have a problem with the whole "holding feedback until the deal is done" theory. I don't find it to be fair.

At that point, you deserve a positive ref. You did exactly what you said you would.

When you receive my item in the condition stated and in a timely manner, you should do the same.

If I send you money, you should leave the ref. I should leave MY ref when I receive the items I bought.

Do you even recall *why* the BTR and DB/BO forums exist?

The forums exist precisely because people fail to do what they should do.

If I never had to worry about another Btowner doing what they should do, I wouldn't have to worry about who ships first, or any of that stuff. Heck, we wouldn't even need Feedback in the first place.

But getting back to reality, not everybody does what they should do. The handful of people who are exceptionally reliable in this regard are the ones who amass the big Feedback numbers. They earned their perqs.


And from a practical standpoint, just because I receive first, I will almost never leave Feedback first. If there's an issue with what I sent, such as when the Postal system screws up, then it's better to keep Feedback open until things are *completely* resolved on *both* sides.

[brettness37]

And from a practical standpoint, just because I receive first, I will almost never leave Feedback first. If there's an issue with what I sent, such as when the Postal system screws up, then it's better to keep Feedback open until things are *completely* resolved on *both* sides.

I fully agree with this.

[insidius]

And from a practical standpoint, just because I receive first, I will almost never leave Feedback first. If there's an issue with what I sent, such as when the Postal system screws up, then it's better to keep Feedback open until things are *completely* resolved on *both* sides.

I fully agree with this.

Ditto.

Learned that from ebay.

[CypherIsGod]

And from a practical standpoint, just because I receive first, I will almost never leave Feedback first. If there's an issue with what I sent, such as when the Postal system screws up, then it's better to keep Feedback open until things are *completely* resolved on *both* sides.

I fully agree with this.

Ditto.

Learned that from ebay.

I don't see the reasoning behind this. Why would you not leave feedback as soon as you receive your end of the bargain. Why should I have to wait for your end to succeed before I get my feedback? Your end of the deal should have absolutely nothing to do with my feedback in the deal. This is almost like you are holding my good feedback hostage until I leave you good feedback. Which means if I am a new trader, then I almost feel like I have to leave you good feedback in order to get my own rating, that I already fully deserve. That just doesn't seem fair.

[Adunaphel]

The only problem that I see with waiting to leave you reference is what if your trade partner is also waiting until you leave your reference.

Are you missing a lot of references that you should have? You realize that if everybody did this we wouldn't have references?

Now, I can see where you would wait until the transaction is completely over (I guess), but if that is the case then it should be down to the guy who got his stuff FIRST to leave the first reference. And we all know who that is going to be (higher rated trader).

I guess I have more faith in my trade partners. If I get my items first and I am happy, then I leave a reference. I am fairly sure that they will like the items I have sent to them, because I try hard to make sure that they are EXACTLY what I have put up for trade.

I personally don't like the idea of holding references hostage, because it means that I am thinking that my trade partner might find fault with MY end of the deal. I don't like to worry about these trades that much.

Karl

[maple]

I fully agree with this.

Ditto.

Learned that from ebay.

I don't see the reasoning behind this. Why would you not leave feedback as soon as you receive your end of the bargain. Why should I have to wait for your end to succeed before I get my feedback? Your end of the deal should have absolutely nothing to do with my feedback in the deal. This is almost like you are holding my good feedback hostage until I leave you good feedback. Which means if I am a new trader, then I almost feel like I have to leave you good feedback in order to get my own rating, that I already fully deserve. That just doesn't seem fair.

I agree. IMO, once the other party has upheld their end of the bargain, feedback should be left.
Now, if you receive a package from the other party and there is a problem with it, then by all means try to work out a solution with the other party prior to leaving their feedback.
Otherwise, if a person sends along a MO or a trade in a prompt fashion, then they deserve to get their positive feedback right away.

[MEDEVL]

I fully agree with this.

Ditto.

Learned that from ebay.

I don't see the reasoning behind this. Why would you not leave feedback as soon as you receive your end of the bargain. Why should I have to wait for your end to succeed before I get my feedback? Your end of the deal should have absolutely nothing to do with my feedback in the deal. This is almost like you are holding my good feedback hostage until I leave you good feedback. Which means if I am a new trader, then I almost feel like I have to leave you good feedback in order to get my own rating, that I already fully deserve. That just doesn't seem fair.

Here's my take on that and I know not everybody sees it this way...
Nobody's "part" of the trade is done until ALL of the facets of the trade are complete. If you send first and I get the stuff in good order I don't leave feedback until after I send and you recieve. Why?? Because even though you see your part as DONE, I don't. The feedback system, in my eyes, doesn't simply rate people on how well they can box up and send out minis, but rather on how well the trade overall. Part of that trading is communication, politeness, packaging, problem resolution, etc.
So until you get your stuff in the mail and are happy with it your portion of the trade isn't done. How you recieve stuff is just as important as how you send it out in my opinion. If I leave feedback right after I recieve and then the deal goes sour (the guy claims I sent the wrong stuff or the box gets smashed by the PO or lost) what recourse do I have if the guy turns out to be a huge jerk?? Sure I left him good feedback earlier based on his ability to send stuff out but now I have more information about him as a trader that makes that earlier good feedback questionable.
It doesn't have anything to do with holding anything hostage, it's just good sense to make sure the deal is fully done and both parties are happy and any problems resolved before doing refs in my opinion.

[Adunaphel]

Yeah, but Jay, do you leave the reference first if your trade partner says he got his stuff (last) and he is happy?

Otherwise, you ARE holding your reference hostage. I can see where a LOT of references are NOT getting left if this is the case.

Karl

[El Jefe]

Feedback is a choice, not an obligation. You got what you wanted, the other person got what they wanted. Be happy with that. Just because the person didn't leave feedback doesn't make them a deadbeat. After all, do you fill out customer feedback forms at every restaurant or store you visit? I've had more trades than my ITL rating shows, but do you see me making an issue out of it? No, because it just isn't that important to me.

If you don't like the fact they didn't leave feedback, then don't trade with them again.

B-town is based on feedback

B-Town is based on fellow wargamers trading their old models for money or newer ones (or vice versa), not on feedback. Feedback is just icing on the cake. Ebay is based on feedback.

I disagree with this 100%. Feedback here is based on your reputation, and it is YOUR OBLIGATION to leave feedback. Otherwise how else can you have an idea of the kind of person you are dealing with.

The ITL and Feedback, much like E-bay is the way to determined whether or not the person you are dealing with is reputable and honest.

I think Feedback should be mandatory, but alas it takes people getting off their lazy rear end's to fill it out. Even though it only takes a minute.

[MEDEVL]

Yeah, but Jay, do you leave the reference first if your trade partner says he got his stuff (last) and he is happy?

Otherwise, you ARE holding your reference hostage. I can see where a LOT of references are NOT getting left if this is the case.

Karl

Once the deal is done completely and I make sure everybody is happy I send a "hey thanks for the deal I'll leave a good ref for you, please do the same for me if you would" type of message. I then click the mouse one more time and leave the feedback. I don't check to see if they did first, I don't really care or have the time to do that. My intentions have nothing to do with who leaves it first or even that both parties leave it (although I do want it to be left for me). I just want to be as accurate and complete in my assessment of the completed trade as possible and you simply can't do that if you leave feedback halfway through.

[Adunaphel]

OK. That's what I was looking for. Reasonability.
I agree with you. Although, with a lot of the guys I trade with I have no qualms about leaving references first. It's just a slight variation from what you do (although I do always leave you references first for some reason...)

But, I think if a trader WON'T leave a reference until his trade partner has is just ASKING to get upset about not getting references.

Karl

[brettness37]

Once the deal is done completely and I make sure everybody is happy I send a "hey thanks for the deal I'll leave a good ref for you, please do the same for me if you would" type of message. I then click the mouse one more time and leave the feedback.

I do the same. For me the deal is done when both people sign off as being happy with the trade and it's conclusion, and I leave feedback at that point. Before then, there is too much room for negotiations to re-open.

[Anglacon]

I think I will add to all my "for trade" postings:

If you send first, I will leave feedback as appropriate as soon as possible.
If I send first, and you are not willing to do the same, then please do not respond to this ad, as I will NEVER deal with blackmailers.

Guys, try to reason it out however you want, but it comes down to the fact that you are holding your feedback hostage until you are sure you will receive a good one in turn.... that is BLACKMAIL, plain and simple!


-Anglacon