Question-

J_Piper · Post by **J_Piper** » Fri Jun 06, 2008 8:35 pm

Why did the (you) moderatiors Lock out the Posting rules section to this area?- Ibelieve that this section needed more discussion before being on the Board- I would of liked to hear more debate( pro and con) as to its reason for being here- as there is a Good trader forum and a Bad trader forum already. the people seem to me to have changed their minds- and this area only makes them look bad and would serve as a de Facto bad trader forum, 9 in essence becomeing a Bad Trader) as Others that read of them will be hesitant at best to trade with them.-

JohnHwangBT · Post by **JohnHwangBT** » Fri Jun 06, 2008 8:37 pm

Actually, the discussion should be moved to the Discussion section...

npd_bigdaddy · Post by **npd_bigdaddy** » Fri Jun 06, 2008 9:42 pm

Not to mention that this was already debated at length quite some time ago........

Erik

J_Piper · Post by **J_Piper** » Fri Jun 06, 2008 10:08 pm

The String shows it not so much a debate as an authoritative decision after a cursory debate-In effect the is area does-
1- imply that the "backouts" are negative traders
2- anyone posted as "backing out"or "lowballing" has futrure potential trades disrupted due to the Negative conmnotation and reticence of the other person
3- has devolved ( albiet in the process still) of meerly slandering the people listed here
4- those listed here have technically done nothing wrong, as either side is free to backout or offer whatever they wish for trades-
5- I am witing for it to be just a name calling area- whicis why i do not usually post in discussion-(or political websites either)
6- In the feedback under a persons name - you can PM/email etc- which is encouraged - other people who have traded with that person to get an idea/their opinion of how the past trade went- does this not make this are null?

mrrshann618 · Post by **mrrshann618** » Fri Jun 06, 2008 10:28 pm

Please re-read the thread. Lowballing was specifically mentioned by Morlock to NOT be a reason to put someone in this category.

Deadbeats is for those individuals who Formalised and agreed to a trade. Nothing at this point was exchanged, except perhaps addresses.
Then one party backs out for one reason or another. Non-communication is a prime example of a reason.

The offended party then has the option to post the other here. The problem is "life happens" If all of a sudden I need that money to fix my car so I can get to work. I need to dump my trade, If you feel offended then you can post here. As nothing changed hands the offender isn't really a bad trader. This area give the person who backed out to defend themselves (My car exploded, I needed money elsewhere)

Part of trading is reasearch, If you want to go off of first impressions go ahead. Your problem, not mine. If the person has a negative TR listed then this area gives the reason, you can make up your own mind. I'd personally forgive the person who's car exploded. It wouldn't be a BTR, I wouldn't even post it here.

Now I want to trade with someone, they finalize, exchange information and AGREE that the trade is going to take place. Then they backout, for really no reason. Then next week I see those models back up for trade. That would "T" me off and I'd post something here.

All of this is in the locked thread at the top of this list. Please next time READ!

*Edited for spelling*

CypherIsGod · Post by **CypherIsGod** » Fri Jun 06, 2008 10:36 pm

As npd said, it was discussed quite a bit. I am only going to note the one thing you got wrong based on the trading rules on this forum:

"4- those listed here have technically done nothing wrong, as either side is free to backout or offer whatever they wish for trades- "

This is incorrect. Once both sides have agreed to a trade, the trade is official (in Bartertown terms at least). Sometimes what constitutes an agreement is open to interpretation, but that's another discussion.

( 832 ) · Post by **MagickalMemories** » Fri Jun 06, 2008 11:45 pm

J_Piper,

You've been a member of bartertown for over 2 years, now.
You've completed a minimum of 11 trades, and have 118 posts (as of my writing this).
You are not new to these forums.
That means you have no excuse for violating the posting policies of the site.
This thread does not belong in the Deadbeats/back Outs Forum. As pointed out, it should have been placed in either the Misc Messages Forum or the Have Questions Forum, with the Misc Messages forum being the optimum choice.
I am requesting that a Mod move it to the correct forum (Watchmen do not have that authority).

To answer your issues, however:

1- imply that the "backouts" are negative traders

This forum implies no such thing. If there is any implication, you have inferred it yourself.

2- anyone posted as "backing out"or "lowballing" has futrure potential trades disrupted due to the Negative conmnotation and reticence of the other person

As stated, anyone posting threads about "lowballing" will be reprimanded. This forum is for tracking those who back out of trades without reasonable excuses so that other traders can be aware of it and repeat offenders can be monitored. You may be unaware, but backing out after a deal is committed is not an unheard of practice for a scammer, when he's failed to convince the other party to ship first.

3- has devolved ( albiet in the process still) of meerly slandering the people listed here

What libel (slander is spoken)is committed by a statement of facts? None. Stating facts, regardless of what light they paint the subject in, is neither slander or libel. It is not until opinions enter the mix (and even then, fairly generous leeway is given) that you need to worry about slander and libel.

4- those listed here have technically done nothing wrong, as either side is free to backout or offer whatever they wish for trades-

As pointed out, this is incorrect. Once a trade is agreed upon and committed to by both sides, backing out IS doing something wrong based on the rules of this web site.

5- I am witing for it to be just a name calling area- whicis why i do not usually post in discussion-(or political websites either)

It is highly unlikely that it will devolve into such a forum. Only the first couple times a topic goes in that direction will be tolerated with mere warnings. Turning the threads into a war zone would eventually cause the Admin staff to crack down as heavily as they have in the "Bad Traders" section.

6- In the feedback under a persons name - you can PM/email etc- which is encouraged - other people who have traded with that person to get an idea/their opinion of how the past trade went- does this not make this are null?

No. It does not.
The forum does not track backed out trades in a traders feedback. Therefore, all of the individuals you PM/email will be those with whom a deal was successful.
The problems with that tactic are:
1) They may not remember the transaction more than what they read in the feedback text. I have over 100 trades under my belt. There are those who have more than 300 trades. You can't expect us to remember them all. Can you?
2) What that person thought is already there, in black & white. Why would you need to ask them what they thought when they already told you?
3) How can you see a history of backed out trades in the feedback area? It only tracks references and the person who was backed out on may not have left a reference. I could have 30 backed out trades under my belt. You'd never know if nobody ever left me a reference on it or posted in this forum about me.

Unfortunately, none of your points really holds any water.

Eric

J_Piper · Post by **J_Piper** » Sat Jun 07, 2008 3:22 am

I was wondering- since you have told me this posting is inappropriate in this section- would you please post a Link to the Appropriate forum for me- as I am not exactly sure where /under what topic it would be deemed approprite to reply to you fellows,and /or continue this discussion/ questions /reply. I would not wish to inadverdantly Violate the rules again ( my mistake for starting the discussion here - as it is the Forum of topic- but am not so good at this site , and sometimes my English suffers too) Thank you - J_P

CypherIsGod wrote:As npd said, it was discussed quite a bit. I am only going to note the one thing you got wrong based on the trading rules on this forum:

"4- those listed here have technically done nothing wrong, as either side is free to backout or offer whatever they wish for trades- "

This is incorrect. Once both sides have agreed to a trade, the trade is official (in Bartertown terms at least). Sometimes what constitutes an agreement is open to interpretation, but that's another discussion.

( 832 ) · Post by **MagickalMemories** » Sat Jun 07, 2008 6:20 am

J_Piper wrote:I was wondering- since you have told me this posting is inappropriate in this section- would you please post a Link to the Appropriate forum for me- as I am not exactly sure where /under what topic it would be deemed approprite to reply to you fellows,and /or continue this discussion/ questions /reply. I would not wish to inadverdantly Violate the rules again ( my mistake for starting the discussion here - as it is the Forum of topic- but am not so good at this site , and sometimes my English suffers too) Thank you - J_P

This would have probably been the best choice:
viewforum.php?f=40&sid=136e772dda7f1eb5df160a02d7e58ee0

This would have worked, as well:
viewforum.php?f=1

PLEASE, DO NOT START A NEW THREAD.
A Moderator orAdmin will move this to the section THEY feel is most appropriate.
In the mean time, simply keep responding here.

That being said, I'm confused:

and sometimes my English suffers too

Could have fooled me, considering the grammatical quality of your previous posts. Seems okay to me.

Eric

J_Piper · Post by **J_Piper** » Sat Jun 07, 2008 3:04 pm

MagickalMemories wrote:
J_Piper wrote:I was wondering- since you have told me this posting is inappropriate in this section- would you please post a Link to the Appropriate forum for me- as I am not exactly sure where /under what topic it would be deemed approprite to reply to you fellows,and /or continue this discussion/ questions /reply. I would not wish to inadverdantly Violate the rules again ( my mistake for starting the discussion here - as it is the Forum of topic- but am not so good at this site , and sometimes my English suffers too) Thank you - J_P

This would have probably been the best choice:
viewforum.php?f=40&sid=136e772dda7f1eb5df160a02d7e58ee0

This would have worked, as well:
viewforum.php?f=1

PLEASE, DO NOT START A NEW THREAD.
A Moderator orAdmin will move this to the section THEY feel is most appropriate.
In the mean time, simply keep responding here.

That being said, I'm confused:
and sometimes my English suffers too
Could have fooled me, considering the grammatical quality of your previous posts. Seems okay to me.

Eric

Ok - I will not start a new "thread "- I will continue here until it is moved to correct section.
Also - thank you on the english compliment- It takes me a long of time to reply sometimes - I am always trying to correct my English and improve my Knowledge of it.

Rhaalidor · Post by **Rhaalidor** » Sat Jun 07, 2008 11:18 pm

MagickalMemories wrote: Misc Messages Forum or the Have Questions Forum, with the Misc Messages forum being the optimum choice.
Eric

MM answered your question before you asked it.

insidius · Post by **insidius** » Sun Jun 08, 2008 4:03 am

As stated, this is not the place for this thread.

I'm assuming you read the rules, since you're complaining about them being locked, so I'm also assuming you simply ignored them.

Thanks.

Moved.

J_Piper · Post by **J_Piper** » Sun Jun 08, 2008 4:14 am

MagickalMemories wrote:J_Piper,

You've been a member of bartertown for over 2 years, now.
You've completed a minimum of 11 trades, and have 118 posts (as of my writing this).
You are not new to these forums.
That means you have no excuse for violating the posting policies of the site.
This thread does not belong in the Deadbeats/back Outs Forum. As pointed out, it should have been placed in either the Misc Messages Forum or the Have Questions Forum, with the Misc Messages forum being the optimum choice.
I am requesting that a Mod move it to the correct forum (Watchmen do not have that authority).

To answer your issues, however:

1- imply that the "backouts" are negative traders
This forum implies no such thing. If there is any implication, you have inferred it yourself.

I disagree- and to juxtapose the question- how would it be positive to be listed in this section? none whatsoever- and it is not a neutral posting , as that would serve no purpose. therefore- the negative connotation to being referenced in this section would be negativ. I do not infer that- the section and its existence does that as the terms , as applied i.e.- "lowballer" and "deadbeat" are NEGATIVE terms, and connotate such, ( as stated in their definitions in the Webster dictionary). I seriously doubt , and common sense would dictate that anyone listed as a "backout" trader' by somone unknown to them would envision anything positive to the reader- who would think - " gee- I WANT to trade wioth this fellow everyone says Backouts of trades"- regardless of wether this has occurred or not- meerly being listed here would do such

2- anyone posted as "backing out"or "lowballing" has futrure potential trades disrupted due to the Negative conmnotation and reticence of the other person
As stated, anyone posting threads about "lowballing" will be reprimanded. This forum is for tracking those who back out of trades without reasonable excuses so that other traders can be aware of it and repeat offenders can be monitored. You may be unaware, but backing out after a deal is committed is not an unheard of practice for a scammer, when he's failed to convince the other party to ship first.

Of course i have heard that in a few places here and there on this and several other trade sites I go to. - however " reasonable excuse " is a relative term , and is based on the particular Viewpoint/culture/etc of each person, it is not essentially "definable" in the way you state it/use the term- as what is reasonable to me , may not be to you and Vice versas

3- has devolved ( albiet in the process still) of meerly slandering the people listed here
What libel (slander is spoken)is committed by a statement of facts? None. Stating facts, regardless of what light they paint the subject in, is neither slander or libel. It is not until opinions enter the mix (and even then, fairly generous leeway is given) that you need to worry about slander and libel.

correct- but as of date - 1- Libel- is printed matter- it is generally accepted as such in the court for internet statements- in the FEW cases it has been used in.It is , however, in contest in many legal circles, and is undecided in most state courts whether the Internet , and statements upon it are slander or not- it is still being debated. not enough precedent has occurred for it to be "reasonably codified"

4- those listed here have technically done nothing wrong, as either side is free to backout or offer whatever they wish for trades-
As pointed out, this is incorrect. Once a trade is agreed upon and committed to by both sides, backing out IS doing something wrong based on the rules of this web site.

that is correct- What exactly determines a trade is relative, and a Private transaction at best. YOUR disclaimer on this site states that also- as you do not widh to be legally or financially responsible for any transactions/legal recourse that would occur( except in the area of evidence- where you assist, and i presume allow- both /all parties access to any weblogs, etc, that a party would require to prosecute, seek legal recourse, and/or use in defense in a case- it also allows you to remain neutral, and more difficult for you to be actionable against in these matters) but it seems that the rules of the website are constantly modified- or ignored- in particuliar- the Chat rooms- where the people there are RARELY on topic- but is ignored by the Mods/those in charge

5- I am witing for it to be just a name calling area- whicis why i do not usually post in discussion-(or political websites either)
It is highly unlikely that it will devolve into such a forum. Only the first couple times a topic goes in that direction will be tolerated with mere warnings. Turning the threads into a war zone would eventually cause the Admin staff to crack down as heavily as they have in the "Bad Traders" section.

They do "crack down" from time to time- but the same occurs , repeatedly- they "crack down " for a while- then another set of disputes devolves into the same- in an endless cycle . Their "crackdowns" have not prevented this from occurring - REPEATEDLY

6- In the feedback under a persons name - you can PM/email etc- which is encouraged - other people who have traded with that person to get an idea/their opinion of how the past trade went- does this not make this are null?
No. It does not.

in essence that is both true and Not- as you can PM or Im etc someone that traded with them, OR you can do the same when theyreply to a OP trade post with "PM'ed"- you can ask if the first respondant and the OP have made a deal, and if not why not- so yes you can

The forum does not track backed out trades in a traders feedback. Therefore, all of the individuals you PM/email will be those with whom a deal was successful.
The problems with that tactic are:
1) They may not remember the transaction more than what they read in the feedback text. I have over 100 trades under my belt. There are those who have more than 300 trades. You can't expect us to remember them all. Can you?
perhaps people should keep records of their transactions-.Their poor memories are not my concern though

2) What that person thought is already there, in black & white. Why would you need to ask them what they thought when they already told you?

perhaps they did not write everything in the trade- rarely are references left that are more than Terse at best

3) How can you see a history of backed out trades in the feedback area? It only tracks references and the person who was backed out on may not have left a reference. I could have 30 backed out trades under my belt. You'd never know if nobody ever left me a reference on it or posted in this forum about me.

I believe part 3 is the crux of the statement you wrote above-
"...I could have 30 backed out trades under my belt. You'd never know if nobody ever left me a reference on it... "-
that is the responsibility of the person for NOT doing so-, but believe it should be used "in extremis" as in - only for those few that truly did "string someone along"-

Unfortunately, none of your points really holds any water.

I disagree - as the entire post and its topic uses , mostly "bona fide " evidebnce- meaning , literally- "good faith" or in in the legal/laymans context-- "my word against yours".
In a court case- even one that holds with prosecution using MOSTLY circumstantial evidence , and "Bona Fide" wittness testimony, ther HAS to be EMPIRICAL evidence- that being- you have to have HARD evidence , and use "circumstance "to link it to the "Bona Fide" testimony, in order to go forward and win.- You have to have ALL 3, - you cannot Have "2 out of 3 is good enough" - it fails-the Case falls through and you LOSE-
Considering that you are exampling completely "Bona Fide' evidence based on legal statute , and court procedure( at least in my stsate - where i know it) - your "casse " does not hold water, mine does- but however- if you use Authorative control, and judgements on this board with like, then , of course you win, as those in Author\ity can , of coures disregsard the law, and make any off hand decesion they wish , and enforce it

( it took me a while to type this , and my dictionary got very good workout tonight ! !!! )

Eric

mrrshann618 · Post by **mrrshann618** » Sun Jun 08, 2008 5:06 am

Not sure exactly where the arguments were, since the whole thing was a quote.

However all this has already been argued. The deadbeat forum is for bad trades that have really lost nothing.. At least that is how I interpreted it. The bad trader forum is for those who blatantly ripped people off.

Example.
I send goods, through DC or tracking I know you got the package. You fail to deliver.
- BTR And legal action since you stole from me.

We agree on a trade, you ship first. You never do. Lets just say, no communication.
- Backout. I don't know the reason, it may be a very good one. Not enough to warrent a BTR and -10 reference points.
Lets, for the sake of argument, say you got in a car wreck on the way to mail me my package. You are in the hospital with no real way to get ahold of me. Backout means no penalty that the admins might have to reverse. The posting can be easily disputed with a simple post.

Personally I'd feel terrible If I gave you a bad reference "because you got into a car accident"

Alternate.

We agree on trade, you never ship. Same thing, No idea why not, no communication.

I post about your lack of follow through, still no communication. Next week those same items I was trading for are back up on the trading block.
We as traders had an agreement. I can keep it posted here, with new evidence. Now knowing that, would you trade with that person knowing that is the kind of trade practices they have? Maybe, each persons call, however now you know that this person has done this before.

This isn't a court of law. This is a trader forum that has established rules. You break these rules there are consequences.
You drive to fast and get pulled over, there are consequences. You may get out of the speeding ticket, however try and talk your way out of the 5th one in 5 days, more than likely, isn't going to happen.

The difference here is that everyone has the right to make up their own mind with all information possible. The deadbeat forum is simply a tool to disuade those individuals who "may" be scammers. Or to help prevent traders from being taken by scammers.