Bad trade or deadbeats?

[Lictors_LoveMachine]

I need some help with some confusion I ran into...

I have 2 guys who said they would ship first but nothing.

Then I have a guy who I sent stuff to and heard nothing.

Now I think the second one is a bad trade I should pursue.

The other two I was going to blow off because nothing was lost.

What should I do?

[Andon]

Ship First but never sent anythings I would consider 'Deadbeats & Backouts'

Second is most definitely a bad trade

[Fool Injected]

How long has it been in each case. After one week, I would send them a "friendly" reminder about the deal. After two weeks, then it is time to be blunt and of course save all emails & pm's!

Sometimes life can get in the way of trading but that is still no excuse for not communicating.

[MagickalMemories]

I need some help with some confusion I ran into...

I have 2 guys who said they would ship first but nothing.

Then I have a guy who I sent stuff to and heard nothing.

Now I think the second one is a bad trade I should pursue.

The other two I was going to blow off because nothing was lost.

What should I do?

Thanks for starting the new topic.
Let me ask some questions that some have already asked or are wondering.
I'll separate it into 2 categories: "Back Outs" and "Trade."

Back Outs:
Did both parties agree that a deal had been struck?
"Sounds good to me," "That works for me," and "It's a deal" are all good examples. Of course, they're not the only ones. If an agreement had been struck, then we're definitely looking at a back out.
Note that this doesn't mean you should automatically leave them a bad ref. It's your discretion, but most people wait until there is some sign of life from the other person (like they ignore your PM's, but put up a trade ad to look for more trades).

When was the last time they PMed you?

What about the last time you PMed them?

Have you seen any new trade ads posted by them since they stopped communicating?

Have you seen them respond to any trade ads since they stopped communicating?

What kind of experience are we talking about on these traders (their ratings)? Not that this is the ultimate judge but, if you are negotiating with someone with a high rating, then he just stops all forms of communication, it's LESS likely that he's backed out & MORE likely that something in that pesky thing we call "real life" has come up. Also, note that I'm not saying that this means lower rated traders can be ASSUMED to have backed out... just that a higher rated trader is easier to comment on in that respect. He's shown a pattern of completing trades, already.

Trade

What is the traders rating?

Where are you located?

Where is he?

What date did you send your items?

Do you have proof they arrived?

Did he acknowledge receiving them?

Did he say he shipped his side? If so, when?


Shoot us some answers to those questions, and we can get a better handle on what we're looking at. We'll be able to give you better answers.


Eric

[Lictors_LoveMachine]

Look ive been scammed myself many times and ive been replying to all your messages so i dont know what the hell your trying to do. I sent the money order to you. I have the stubb in my wallet right now as ive said in the last five messages ive sent you. i dont know whats going on here but i checked in on it and my money order was cashed on the 15th so if you dont have my money i would like to know why. I dont know what else you want from me but ive upheld my end of the deal and i wont be sending any more money.

*edited*

This is the reply I got surprisingly after I started this thread...

I replied...

*edited*, I want proof.

Why is this ONE message got through WHEN I THREATEN TO GO TO THE POLICE and I have NOTHING else in return from you?

I want copies of ALL of the messages, I want a copy of the money order number and amount you made it out for and who you bought it from. I also want the date it was bought. I asked for a USPS money order and in this case I will file a fraud claim with the post office if it was cashed.

I'm not buying this.

I want my money or my NEW models in a week. No BS.

Timothy...

Now from experiences with ebay and paypal both I can get copies of moneyorders to show who cashed it, when it was cashed AND if it was ever purchased and from who company they bought it from.

I think I am being messed with.

Do you want to see every post between us? I can do that I kept everything.

Thanks for the help guys.

[MagickalMemories]

First off, I suggest that you edit your last post & remove the traders name from the "quote" title.
This isn't a BTR and, by naming him here, you're essentially "calling him out."
(Even though I doubt this was your intent)

It'll look better on YOU in the long run, if you do. It's better to allow your trade partner to remain anonymous while inquiring about advice on dealing them and, should they desire, let them name themselves openly. That way, you will not be accused of fingerpointing and laying blame (as a BTR) without posting the required proof.

At this point, I won't say that he's lying about the Money Order.
That would be unfair to him.
You need to require him to prove it, though. If he does not, then it's the same as if he didn't pay you, as he made no assurances that the money would get to you (no D.C., signature, etc). It is his responsibility to ensure that YOU (and nobody else) receive payment for the goods.

As for him stating that he replied... either you're lying or he is.
I have MY suspicions which it is, but I won't say which it is publicly, as I'm trying to remain impartial in my advice.

If he did send you PM's, have him forward them to you... He can go to his "Outbox" or "Sentbox" (depending on whether or not they were read) and copy & paste everything (the "address lines", as well as the message text) and put it all into a new PM.
Linrandir can, then, check that against the system to see if he really did send them and whether or not they ever made it to you.
While I doubt it would happen, I guess there's always the possibility that a BTown hiccup caused those PM's not to arrive to you... numerous times.

If he claims that he no longer has those PM's, most of us will presume that he is lying about the PM's and, by default, presume the same for everything else he says.

I would even mention this thread to him -and include a link- in the PM you send him.

Eric

Oh... and presuming he's telling the truth about the M.O. being cashed, HE has to be the one to go to the police, issuing bank, P.O., etc.

[Lictors_LoveMachine]

Thanks for starting the new topic.
Let me ask some questions that some have already asked or are wondering.
I'll separate it into 2 categories: "Back Outs" and "Trade."

Back Outs:
Did both parties agree that a deal had been struck?

Yes

"Sounds good to me," "That works for me," and "It's a deal" are all good examples. Of course, they're not the only ones. If an agreement had been struck, then we're definitely looking at a back out.
Note that this doesn't mean you should automatically leave them a bad ref. It's your discretion, but most people wait until there is some sign of life from the other person (like they ignore your PM's, but put up a trade ad to look for more trades).

When was the last time they PMed you?

Over a month ago

What about the last time you PMed them?

About a week ago

Have you seen any new trade ads posted by them since they stopped communicating?

Have not looked

Have you seen them respond to any trade ads since they stopped communicating?

Have not looked

What kind of experience are we talking about on these traders (their ratings)? Not that this is the ultimate judge but, if you are negotiating with someone with a high rating, then he just stops all forms of communication, it's LESS likely that he's backed out & MORE likely that something in that pesky thing we call "real life" has come up. Also, note that I'm not saying that this means lower rated traders can be ASSUMED to have backed out... just that a higher rated trader is easier to comment on in that respect. He's shown a pattern of completing trades, already.

Trade

What is the traders rating?

30

Where are you located?

Oregon

Where is he?

Indiana

What date did you send your items?

April 30, 2008
Confirmation number: 0305 2710 0002 6794 7434

Do you have proof they arrived?

Info from USPS web site:

Label/Receipt Number: 0305 2710 0002 6794 7434 Status: Delivered

Your item was delivered at 2:00 PM on May 2, 2008 in ANDERSON, IN 46013.

Did he acknowledge receiving them?

Yes, email message from him says he got the tanks...

Did he say he shipped his side? If so, when?

Yes he did. The following Monday he said it would be in the mail.

Shoot us some answers to those questions, and we can get a better handle on what we're looking at. We'll be able to give you better answers.


Eric

If you need more details let me know. Thanks Eric.

Timothy

[Lictors_LoveMachine]

Sorry about that, I was posting whe nyour message came through Eric. I *edited* the user is name out of the thread as per your request/suggestion.

I will send him another PM asking for forwards of all of the messages including headers.

And thanks for being candid. I like to think that I am not a liar.

I just want to resolve this and get on with trading.

Timothy

[MagickalMemories]

Okay, so, to summarize yout Back Out's:

Both trades were agreed upon by both sides.
You haven't heard from them in a month or more, though you've continued trying to get a hold of them.
Both "Back Out's" have ratings of 30+.
You haven't looked to see if they've been active in the forums.

Presuming they're both US based traders, a month is too long to wait to receive product. Especially for traders who have a fairly well established 30+ rating (presuming it's legit).

I'm going to walk you through what I do when looking into these things. I suggest you do the following:

1) Look @ the traders ref's. Make certain that they've from diverse traders and haven't all happened within the last couple months. Although it's unlikely at a rating this high (30+), it's not unknown for scammers to bolster their ref's with fake ref's from other accounts they've set up.
An easy indicator is if all or most of their ref's come from traders with a 0 or 2 ref whose only ref's are from the person you're looking into. A particuarly wiley scammer will use multiple accounts and each will have ref's from each of the others. Six accounts done like this would give each a 10 rating with ease.
Again, this is not proof positive, but it is something that should cause you to give pause.
It's not unknown for someone to bloster their own rating in hopes of scamming people. That can be anything from having "lower rated" traders send first -and theirs is high due to fake ref's- to convincing someone they already sent & bullying/charming them into going ahead and sending their own half. A trade backout can be indicative of a failed scam attempt, as they couldn't get you to ship & so have ceased the transaction or even talking about it.

2)Next, look at your "Sentbox" and "Outbox" to see whether or not your PM's have been read.
If they've been read, and *I* was in your place, I'd presume I was being ignored.

If they're getting them, but ignoring you... see the red text above.

3)Lastly, I would look into his profile, then the link (forget the exact wording) where you can look at their most recent posts.
Have they posted any trade ads since your last PM from them? Have they posted anything in someone ELSE'S trade ad since then? If either of these is a "Yes," see my thoughts on "Outbox/Inbox" above. LOL
Same goes for any Discussion type threads.
If they're posting in any of the discussion type threads, I would presume the same.

Posting in "Discussion" threads is LESS indicative that the person is a scammer (They don't want to pay around with us. They want to get our stuff & get out), though isn't necessarily an automatic point that you should trust them. The term "Con" in "Con-game" stands for "Confidence," after all... and buddying up to us would be a nice way to start that confidence.
If they're still trying to attempt trades (especially a large # at once), it could be indicative of the initial "red text."

If you haven't already noticed, please note that I'm not speaking in absolutes. It's all "could be's." The best any of us can do is make assumptions. I'm simply pointing out what could be, though not necessarily "is."


Re: Bad Trade

-You're both in the US, so no customs worries or excuses, there.
-You have proof that you sent (hold TIGHT to the hard copy of it).
-He acknowledged receiving the items via email.
-He states he paid you, which should be further indication that you sent... Why would he have paid you, otherwise, if you were to send first? Right?
-He claims to have proof that the Money Order was cashed.

He needs to request a copy of that MO from whatever bank issued it. Even if he got it at a convenience store, the Money Order is backed by a bank (thus, considered to be "issued" by them). He has the receipt, he says, so he can get the bank name from it.
He needs to provide YOU with a copy of it, if it has been signed by "you."


My advice:
At this point, I would (politely) PM him and state that you didn't receive any previous PM's from him and would like to "start over."
Be nice. Apologize for any attitude you had, etc.
Advise him that you'll need to work together on this one.
He says he's been scammed, "many times" before. It looks like he has another to add on to that. Tell him that you're willing to work with him as long as you guys can stay in constant contact. Advise him of the steps he'll need to follow. As long as he's cooperating, there's no reason to get confrontational.
As long as he stays in contact with you and gives you all of the info you want (including serial #, etc from the money order & a way to verify for yourself whether or not it has been negotiated), there's no reason for either of you to be hostile or confrontational.

I would hold off on the BTR until it becomes apparent that he's lied or if he is uncooperative.
Should either of those become obvious (to you), then a BTR might be the way to go (your call).

Eric