A few questions about references

[Adunaphel]

Stansilav, I would bet by your references that it doesn't inhibit your trading at all. I could see where a lot of traders would see that list as a public service to help us all stay away from bad traders.

The problem is that if you have someone who just has an axe to grind (which happens here a little too much for me), then the list is flawed OR if a list was made public and the only reason some of the traders are on there is because that it was "heard through the grapevine" that they were bad traders, then that would be wrong of DNT lister and reflects poorly on them in the end.

I understand that we all (except the bad guys) want to make Bartertown a better place and in a way putting up our DNT lists in public COULD help but I think over the long haul it COULD have negative effects for all of us.

I'm sorry if I sounded harsh, that wasn't the case. I was just a little shocked. I had never actually noticed a DNT list in a sig line. If I had I would've probably PM'ed you about the why of it. I could see where a thing like that could be abused and abusive to fellow traders who maybe have already paid their punishment for mistakes here.

Karl

[MagickalMemories]

Karl,
Actually, I was the one that started the trend of the DNT lists (visible ones at least). I still have some reasons to like them, but I have decided to pull mine off of the sig line. I actually did it earlier in this discussion ( a couple of days ago) for reasons of my own and a couple that were brought up. I don't post ALOT but I do post, and I had gotten several PMs about people on my "list". I discussed exactly what the problem was with whoever took the time to PM whether it was the guy who personally just rubbed me the wrong way (and I made sure to note that that was what, not that he was a bad trader).

Sorry, I don't think it hampered any of my trading or selling here on this site. Like I said earlier, I also think it provided a red flag for the negatives I had left. Why? Because people don't always read the comments on the ITL, they see a number and go on. In another discussion I hoped that they would change a negative ref to -9 instead of -10. An odd number would serve a better point to just glancing at the number. However, my visible DNT list also had an individual who was not a bad trader, just someone I didn't want to deal with, and pasting him everywhere was unfair to him. That was the cause of the removal.

Almost everyone on my DNT list is someone who has done something shady... someone I feel needs to be watched out for. There is one, however (who has not taken part in this discussion and I won't name) who attacked me recently, in a public forum, for NO valid reason. THAT ticked me off. I would never trade with him simply for that.

Should I insert a list into my sig line, it would state the specific reason WHY I am not trading with them. Being the resident Post Whore (LOL), my sig line gets out there often. You are correct that it would be unfair to have someone's name out there as someone I wouldn't trade with, without qualifying it. I think, however, that the act of qualifying why they are there takes some of the "sting" off of it.

So, let's say I won't trade with the traders in the post below (my apologies if these are ACTUAL traders. It's meant to be generic). One, because I don't like him. I think he's a jerk, and he's made it a point to insult me publicly (unprovoked). The other because he's suspected (openly in the BTR forum) of being a scammer. My DNT list might look like this:

My personal "Do Not trade" List:
Trader:................................Reason:
TraderX............................Personality Conflict
Scamtastic........................Suspected Scammer

I sincerely doubt that the fact that I have a personality conflict with the guy would make someone decide to stop trading with him.
I mean, no disrespect intended to the man (sincerely), but BCI grated on a LOT of people's nerves... yet he had a HUGE rating, because people still traded with him (and he was a very good trader).

Adunaphel (and I'm only naming you because you stated that a public DNT list might affect your desire to trade with someone you saw on it), if you saw the DNT list I posted above, would it keep you from trading with "TraderX?" My gut reaction is to think not, but I look forward to your response on it (as well as anyone elses).

Eric

[Anglacon]

Wow. A public DNT list is tantamount to a Bad Trader Report without having to follow the rules of Proof, Content or even the Truth!

It circumvents all the rules bartertown has in effect to make sure traders are protected from people out on a vendetta.

I DO have a do not trade list, but I would never make it public. If they scammed me or were a bad trader, i would do an official report. If they mislead on the description, then added afterwards (which they did) to make up for it, they are still on my DNT list, but not bad enough for a BTR or a public display of humiliation, which, lets face it, is all a public DNT list is.

-Anglacon

[insidius]

Wow. A public DNT list is tantamount to a Bad Trader Report without having to follow the rules of Proof, Content or even the Truth!

It circumvents all the rules bartertown has in effect to make sure traders are protected from people out on a vendetta.

I DO have a do not trade list, but I would never make it public. If they scammed me or were a bad trader, i would do an official report. If they mislead on the description, then added afterwards (which they did) to make up for it, they are still on my DNT list, but not bad enough for a BTR or a public display of humiliation, which, lets face it, is all a public DNT list is.

-Anglacon

Yeah, my opinion is that something like a DNT list should be kept private, for one's own reference for exactly this reason.

[Adunaphel]

Eric,

In a word, yes. The funny part is the fact that you are worried about how a "I don't like the guy" listing would look, but actually the "suspected scammer" is even MORE worrying to me. When things like that start getting thrown around then what Anglacon says is even more true.

You are getting around the rules for BTR's by personally bringing people down. And if you think that people wouldn't shun traders who are listed in PUBLIC DNT lists, then I think you are mistaken.

You might have missed my comment about traders who would list their DNT lists publicly. I would tend to worry about trading with THEM. I would worry whether I would seem a "jerk" and then I would get added to your list and my trading would suffer for it.

On the opposite end of that, if you were to see your own name in a public DNT list for no other reason then another trader thought you were the jerk (or post whore, budinsky, threadjacker, etc.... ) then YOU would end up being the one who was hurt by it. That would NOT be fair to you and your trading practices.

Arbitrary reasoning for Do Not Trade lists should ALWAYS be kept to yourself. It is even WORSE if you list the reason WHY you have a trader on your DNT. And if it is something like, "he's beligerent to me personally" then YOU should worry about how that makes YOU look.

We all hang on the type written word here (or letters for the lazy), so it shouldn't come as a surprise that those words could tear down another trader for no other reason then you can't get along with them...

Karl

[peacemystic]

Know what, PM. That's a DANG good point.
I hadn't thought about it that way.

Your words were enough to make me seriously consider NOT doing that.
I'm not totally convinced yet... but it's definite food for thought.

Eric

I thought about having a personal do not trade list myself at one stage,but for the reasons i stated i couldn't do it,it just seemed unfair when i thought about it,not that i don't have people that i wouldn't trade with,but i don't think its right to repeatedly rub someones nose in it.
I mean we all screw up from time to time,every one needs a second chance(well almost everyone...brinkofinsanity comes to mind for no second chances)

Cheers
Steve

Oh, no. I think I wasn't clear.

I HAVE a "DNT" list... and I do NOT deviate from it. Once you are on it, you are on it to stay.
It isn't easy to get on there, but it isn't TOO difficult, either.

What I was contemplating was NOT putting it in my sig line.

IF I decide to put it into my sig line, I'll make the list into a small(ish) image, post the image to P-Bucket & put the link in my sig line that shows the image. I would update the image as necessary.

THAT is the part I'm rethinking... Posting it, now having it.
Not everyone deserves a second chance, IMO. Those people make my DNT list.

I mean, if brinkosanity comes to mind for you, imagine if you'd encountered 5 people who you felt that exact same way about. Isn't it easier to have a list of them than try to remember them all?

Eric

Nah i got were you were comming from,i just didn't make it clear myself,by all means have a personal do not trade list that you keep private,the second chance i was talking about was for other people to give the trader another chance to redeem themselfs,which they are less likly to get if there name is posted publicly everytime someone posts.

I've only ever given bad feedback once,and i didn't like doing,but i felt like i have no other choice,but the trader contacted me and asked for a second chance on another trade,well admittedly i'm a bleeding heart Liberal,and i gave him a second chance,and he came through with flying colors

Cheers
Steve

[peacemystic]

Wow. A public DNT list is tantamount to a Bad Trader Report without having to follow the rules of Proof, Content or even the Truth!

It circumvents all the rules bartertown has in effect to make sure traders are protected from people out on a vendetta.

I DO have a do not trade list, but I would never make it public. If they scammed me or were a bad trader, i would do an official report. If they mislead on the description, then added afterwards (which they did) to make up for it, they are still on my DNT list, but not bad enough for a BTR or a public display of humiliation, which, lets face it, is all a public DNT list is.

-Anglacon

Wow you made some great points,that i hadn't even thought about

[MagickalMemories]

In a word, yes. The funny part is the fact that you are worried about how a "I don't like the guy" listing would look, but actually the "suspected scammer" is even MORE worrying to me. When things like that start getting thrown around then what Anglacon says is even more true.

I'm not worried about how it would look if I had someone on the list because of personality conflict. I was merely asking if it would affect YOUR judgement of the person to see him on the list for that reason. You stated (not a direct quote) that having somebody on your public DNT list could/would affect how others thought of them. I was merely asking if having a reason there would make a difference to you.

You are getting around the rules for BTR's by personally bringing people down. And if you think that people wouldn't shun traders who are listed in PUBLIC DNT lists, then I think you are mistaken.

I don't see it (Re: BTR's). I listed 2 "traders" in my fictional DNT list, with specifics on both. The one, suspected scammer, I stated (fictionally) had a BTR thread on him. Having his name in my post does nothing but make people aware that there's a BTR on this guy. Heck, if nothing else, I see that as a good thing. Many scammers have profited from the fact that not all traders practice due diligence & read the Bad Trader threads.

As for the 2nd half of that quote (re: shunning), I honestly don't believe that the vast majority of traders here would refrain from trading with "TraderX," simply because he and I do not get along. As for affecting trades with "Scamtastic" ... I'd see it as a good thing. If the guy has a valid BTR, then I'm doing the community a favor.

That being said, I realize that I used extreme examples in my "DNT" list. I have no definite thoughts on the more borderline issues (like long shipping time, etc). Fact is, however, I don't really have any of that. My rating allows me to protect myself fairly well (which I'm @nal about doing). The only traders I ship to first or simu are 100 and above, unless I have a solid relationship with them here. So, I don't have a problem with receiving broken parts, etc. If the trader's unwilling to "make good" on broken models, I'd just ship 'em back and advise him that the trade is off.
Still, however, I'm considering the "borderline" issues (like that one) for completeness' sake. That is why my personal DNT hasn't been posted.

You might have missed my comment about traders who would list their DNT lists publicly. I would tend to worry about trading with THEM. I would worry whether I would seem a "jerk" and then I would get added to your list and my trading would suffer for it.

I caught it. I totally understand.
Absolutely NO disrespect is intended with my opinion, but that wouldn't affect my decision.
For the record, that isn't about you. It's about anyone who would feel that same way.
In trading, I have 2 goals:
1) To get a good and fair deal for myself without being scammed or cheated.
2) To give a good and fair deal to my trade partner. Numerous times, I've refused a deal because it wasn't good enough for the OTHER individual, then added items in to call it even.

That is it.
My goal during a trade is not to make a new friend (though it's good when that happens), it's not to ensure I have approval from anyone, and it isn't to protect someone else's good name (that's their own job).

KIND OF the same thing goes when posting.
I don't post because I want (enter individual here) to like me and be my friend... though, as above, I DO like it when I make a new friend here...
My mom loves me just as I am, as do my kids & my wife. I don't look for approval from anyone else LOL (though I still try to act in a manner so as not to gain DISapproval... even -being only human- if I fail at times. ).
...and it's not my job to protect the reputation of someone who lies about the condition of his models then refuses to make good on it, someone who tries to scam others, or someone who openly calls me derogatory and insulting names in a public forum with NO provocation.

If someone chooses not to trade with me because of it, I will NOT take that personally. Not at all. It's their right to do that. If they put me in their sig line as a "DNT," it won't ruin my day, either. That is their right, as well (IMO). I would just hope they'd qualify WHY I was there.

Someone like you, Adunaphel, I HIGHLY doubt would ever make my DNT list. Even though we don't always see eye to eye, I respect you... and I seriously doubt your trade practices would get you there, either.

Please, understand, there is no "attitude" above. Just straight talk.

On the opposite end of that, if you were to see your own name in a public DNT list for no other reason then another trader thought you were the jerk (or post whore, budinsky, threadjacker, etc.... ) then YOU would end up being the one who was hurt by it. That would NOT be fair to you and your trading practices.

Like I said above, it wouldn't bother me. I'd hope they'd post their reason in their sig line, as well, simply out of respect for the site... and -if they were someone I respected, liked, etc.- I might PM them and ask them why I was there... but that's it.
Life's too short to concern myself with trivialities.

Arbitrary reasoning for Do Not Trade lists should ALWAYS be kept to yourself. It is even WORSE if you list the reason WHY you have a trader on your DNT. And if it is something like, "he's beligerent to me personally" then YOU should worry about how that makes YOU look.

Again, I respect your opinion, though I don't understand part of it.
How is it worse for me to say (basically), "I won't trade with this guy, but it's only because I don't like him," as compared to, "This other guy, however, has a BTR on him and I wouldn't take the risk. Here's a third guy who sent me broken stuff that was supposed to be in good condition and refused to make good on his word?"

The way I worded my example clearly shows who is there for questionable trade practices and who is there because we just don't get along.

I mean, it was fairly obvious that BCI and I didn't get along. I doubt people refused to trade with him because I didn't like him... or vice versa.

Not meaning to slander him at all. He's just, probably, the only person I can think of on the site I've ever had a "big" disagreement with. That's why I referenced him.

We all hang on the type written word here (or letters for the lazy), so it shouldn't come as a surprise that those words could tear down another trader for no other reason then you can't get along with them...

I agree, with a caveat.
I think that, anyone who would refuse to trade with "TraderX," simply because he and I didn't get along is someone that "TraderX" is better off not dealing with, as it shows a serious personality deficiency in that person.


Eric

[Adunaphel]

Alright, let me start off by saying that I never intended a you said, I said kind of thread. Also, I think it's obvious that I wouldn't have any of the fine traders who have posted here on any Do Not Trade list.

Although, I would certainly be careful in dealing with traders who posted a list of traders they didn't like.

I don't doubt for a SECOND that the kind of lists that you (Eric) or Stanislav would make would be made to try to make Bartertown a better place.

BUT, and it's a big but , I STILL think you underestimate how much damage a list like the one you are considering would cause.

You asked if I thought seeing a traders name in a public DNT list of a well respected member of this site would affect what I thought of them. And my quick and easy answer is YES!!!!

I personally can't see ANY reason you would publicly list a name of trader in a DNT list just because you don't LIKE them.

I am not going to quote you. I don't see the point. I wasn't trying to be disrespectful either and I am not trying to single anybody out. I just think that you set a dangerous precedent that could lead to more trouble than good.

I agree with Stanislav that a negative reference should be a -9 so that it catches the eye. But, I think MOST traders look at the references to decide whether they want to trade with somebody or not.

When you consider that newer traders are receiving negative references for backing out, you are just compounding their rookie mistakes by pointing out to every B-towner on every post those very same mistakes, but you are even making it look more sinister if you were to use a phrase like "suspected scammer".


"Understand Frodo, I would use this ring from the desire to do good, but through me it would wield a power too great and terrible to imagine."

Karl

[MagickalMemories]

LOL

Are you comparng me to Gandalf?
I'm flattered.

Just kidding, of course.

You asked if I thought seeing a traders name in a public DNT list of a well respected member of this site would affect what I thought of them. And my quick and easy answer is YES!!!!

I can understand that.
Would it alter your willingness to trade with them?

(Please, understand, I'm not "questioning you." I'm just inquiring)

I personally can't see ANY reason you would publicly list a name of trader in a DNT list just because you don't LIKE them.

IF I were to decide to post a DNT list, it would be a complete list. As stanislav said, it would be there for myself, as an easy reference. Other people using it would only be secondary.

I wasn't trying to be disrespectful either and I am not trying to single anybody out.

No disrespect taken. You haven't shown to be that kind of guy. If I saw something I thought you might mean that way, I'd ask before ASSuming.

I just think that you set a dangerous precedent that could lead to more trouble than good.

I don't necessarily AGREE, nor do I disagree. I'm still on the fence about it. I've been contemplating it for about 3 or 4 weeks, now. Maybe more.
The decision wouldn't be made lightly (which is, hopefully, apparent).
It could lead to trouble if handled wrongly. What I'm contemplating is IF there is a "right" way to handle it to cause as little hassle (generic term for "insert issue here" ) as possible.

I appreciate your input.

Until the last couple days, I was almost certainly going to do it. It was (almost) just a matter of taking the time to create it.

To quote myself, to PeaceMystic (in regards to putting the DNT in my sig line):

Your words were enough to make me seriously consider NOT doing that.
I'm not totally convinced yet... but it's definite food for thought.

Your input, Adunaphel (How do you pronounce that, by the way?), has definitely given me plenty of food for thought, as well.



Eric

[Adunaphel]

uh-Dune-uh-Fell.
At least I think so. You would have to ask Tolkein and he isn't answering anymore. I won't go into the long story about my trader name because it gives me pain. That's a story for another day.

As for your more important question. I would NOT take your list as the only source of information. I am perfectly able to make up my own mind about whom I am willing to trade with.
I do think that it would weigh in on my decision though. And I think other traders would use it in ways that are more repugnant. I believe that one of the newer traders had a complaint (in Adam Souza's wonderful Trade Rant Thread) about traders with experience who were preying upon newer traders. I think your list would just ratchet up that kind of behavior.

Obviously, you COULD feel that my answer would give you more ammunition for posting the list, but I would ask that you think of the more far-reaching consequences of that action.

I am not going to single-handedly try to talk you out of this course. Actually, I think Anglacon did a better job of showing you the opposing side of your argument.

"Bilbo, the ring is still in your pocket."

Karl

[JohnHwangBT]

In my sig, I self-promote my trading references.

Assuming I had a problem with someone, what if I were to provide links to negative Feedback that I've left?

Do Not Trade List
thegatekeeper@onebox.com
...

In this case, I'd simply be piggybacking off of the established Btown Feedback system.

Is this a "better" approach?