A few questions about references

Adunaphel · Post by **Adunaphel** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 1:49 am

No problem. I wasn't trying to point out that the thread had moved away from the original post. I was hoping to hear other traders spout their opinions about references. It's all good. I found out that I wasn't the only one who has this problem. I didn't think that I would be and I actually wanted to see what would happen with this thread.

So, please go on. Don't let me stop you guys from ironing out what differences we have about references.

I think most of my questions were answered fairly quickly. But, that doesn't mean that this thread should be cast aside.

Clearly, there is a slightly deeper problem.

Let me add something to that.
I recently purchased some magnets from a trader here. I paid for them already. When I did, I wondered whether he would leave me a reference. On eBay, I would've left feedback already if I was him. HERE, though, I would have second thoughts and I don't blame him for NOT leaving me a reference yet. SO many things could go wrong in the meantime.

So, long story short, I will await the items and when they come in I will leave him a reference and hope that he will give me a reference when he sees that the transaction has worked out for him.

I guess in a way it leaves me open to not getting references, but I feel that it is the right way to go about my transactions here.

Karl

MEDEVL · Post by **MEDEVL** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 2:40 am

Some of the things that have come up that I would consider hitches:

Leaving out a bit or 2 (or even a whole mini) and having to have it shipped after the initial stuff is recieved.

Finding out that stuff wasn't properly described or painting standards were not up to snuff.

Boxes sent to wrong address (I recently moved and had a packaged shipped to my old house since it was from a trader I've dealt with before and he must keep an address file. Even though I gave him my new one it went ot the old address. I still own the house so it's no big deal but it was a hitch)

Packaging, packaging, packaging!! Some guys just throw stuff in a box (which suprisingly can be OK in some cases) and others aren't happy even if you bubble wrap each guy and surround them all with peanuts.

I'm sure there are a thousand others...

So here's my point. With a relatively high rating I'm almost always getting my stuff sent to me first. If leave feedback right away and any of these or any other hitch comes up what do you do? If for instance I leave a bit out and the guy turns into a complete dick and the whole trade goes south, that needs to be reflected in the final accounting. What if we agree to ship without insurance and no tracking (which I will do if people ask and don't want to pay the extra $$$) and then the guy says he never got the stuff? My character and feedback suggest that I am a man of my word but if he doesn't beleive I ever sent stuff we might come to an impasse. All I'm saying is that until the deal is all the way done you aren't entirely sure how it's going to play out. How somebody recieves their stuff is just as important as how they package and send their stuff.

What I usually say in my negotiations is:
"Let me know when you get the box and ship out. I'll do the same and we'll leave feedback at the point once everybody has their stuff"

I also usually send an email once I've left feedback to this effect:
"Thanks for the great trade. I left you good feedback. Please do the same for me if you were happy with our deal."

If they don't then there's no much I can do. Like I said I've been here long enough that I've got a high enough rating that I don't have to worry about it as much as a lot of other people. I wish that both sides of feedback had to be entered before EITHER side got any points. I don't know if we could do it here but Ebay should be able to do something like that since all of their transactions are given item numbers and Bartertown doesn't. I should patent the idea...

@ Stanislav,
I didn't think you were calling me out and you never forgot to leave me feedback. I wish you never ditched GW (well part of me is veerrrry glad you did!!!)

I loved trading with you and I respect your opinions highly. You're one of the guys that keeps this site alive. I just wish you had some more bits boxes to buy...

( 832 ) · Post by **MagickalMemories** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 4:20 am

peacemystic wrote:if putting someones name on a personal DO NOT TRADE LIST that bad-mouths the other person everytime you post anything is not making everyone who trades with you a perpetual hostage to you,i don't know what is.

I'd much rather have some say"once you post of ref Bad or Good i'll post your ref for you" than to have my name plasted everwhere you post

Know what, PM. That's a DANG good point.
I hadn't thought about it that way.

Your words were enough to make me seriously consider NOT doing that.
I'm not totally convinced yet... but it's definite food for thought.

Eric

YoungWolf777 · Post by **YoungWolf777** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 4:02 pm

MEDEVL wrote: What I usually say in my negotiations is:
"Let me know when you get the box and ship out. I'll do the same and we'll leave feedback at the point once everybody has their stuff"

I also usually send an email once I've left feedback to this effect:
"Thanks for the great trade. I left you good feedback. Please do the same for me if you were happy with our deal."

I do precisely the same thing. I much prefer the feedback represent the final accounting of a deal, not at the midpoint in case something goes wrong. I've only had a minor handful of cases where it was needed, but in the end it let me turn a potential neutral or even negative ref into a positive.

Once the ref is left it's permanent. There's no edit button...

Stanislav · Post by **Stanislav** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 4:18 pm

After reading this, replying, and reading some more, let me clarify or change my opinion a little.

Leaving feedback halfway through (or once completion of your part) is usually the way I do it because many times if you put it off, it never gets done.

As said earlier, someones still has to make the step of doing it first. Even if the potential is there that your trading partner is NOT going to leave you feedback because he is a deadbeat and doesn't care.

insidius · Post by **insidius** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 4:20 pm

I think discussions like these are great for the community.

This is how some of our rules actually end up getting made (not that I'm suggesting in any way that a rule will come of this, it was purely an example).

I just mean that this community has made bartertown great, and this is one of the many reasons why.

( 832 ) · Post by **MagickalMemories** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 4:32 pm

insidius wrote:I think discussions like these are great for the community.

This is how some of our rules actually end up getting made (not that I'm suggesting in any way that a rule will come of this, it was purely an example).

I just mean that this community has made bartertown great, and this is one of the many reasons why.

Butt kisser,

Eric

Adunaphel · Post by **Adunaphel** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 5:37 pm

Hey Jay,

I like this one:

I wish that both sides of feedback had to be entered before EITHER side got any points. I don't know if we could do it here but Ebay should be able to do something like that since all of their transactions are given item numbers and Bartertown doesn't.

That would be cool, although it might be dang hard to get those Negatives out!!

Also, another thing I noticed (and this might be off topic a bit), I wish that when you looked at a traders references you could see the traders names instead of their email addresses. I would certainly be more inclined to trade with people here when I knew the traders that had left them feedback. I can instantly recognize things like Medevl, Darksoul, Darkchampion, Brian Adair, Insidius, BUT it takes a while to figure out the emails. I actually just go by the comments and the number of references that THEY have when considering another trader.

Am I missing something there, or is email the only way to look at the references?

Karl

Stanislav · Post by **Stanislav** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 5:54 pm

It used to list people by Trader Name, but either it's gone or a glitch.

JohnHwangBT · Post by **JohnHwangBT** » Mon Mar 10, 2008 8:43 pm

MEDEVL wrote:Packaging, packaging, packaging!!

With a relatively high rating I'm almost always getting my stuff sent to me first. If leave feedback right away and any of these or any other hitch comes up what do you do?

What if we agree to ship without insurance and no tracking (which I will do if people ask and don't want to pay the extra $$$) and then the guy says he never got the stuff?

"Let me know when you get the box and ship out. I'll do the same and we'll leave feedback at the point once everybody has their stuff"

Packaging details don't matter as long as the stuff arrives in good condition. Note that this means that bubble envelopes don't really cut it. It's not hard to find (or make) a box.

Feedback is a funny thing. In the rare case that I'm trading with someone with a higher score than me (100+), I wouldn't mind leaving feedback first, because odds are likely that they will leave feedback - they've been on Btown long enough to leave Feedback as a matter of course.

If I'm trading with someone of low rating (<40), I always wait until the deal is concluded. I don't like people flaking on Feedback.

I generally insist on Delivery Confirmation - it should pretty much be mandatory. What I don't like is how USPS is getting spotty about following through with DC updates. The trade process should prevent errors and mistakes. DC helps prevent problems.

But yeah, I like to do joint Feedback at the very end, that way, there's room to fix problems if any occur.

peacemystic · Post by **peacemystic** » Tue Mar 11, 2008 1:26 am

MagickalMemories wrote:
peacemystic wrote:if putting someones name on a personal DO NOT TRADE LIST that bad-mouths the other person everytime you post anything is not making everyone who trades with you a perpetual hostage to you,i don't know what is.

I'd much rather have some say"once you post of ref Bad or Good i'll post your ref for you" than to have my name plasted everwhere you post
Know what, PM. That's a DANG good point.
I hadn't thought about it that way.

Your words were enough to make me seriously consider NOT doing that.
I'm not totally convinced yet... but it's definite food for thought.

Eric

I thought about having a personal do not trade list myself at one stage,but for the reasons i stated i couldn't do it,it just seemed unfair when i thought about it,not that i don't have people that i wouldn't trade with,but i don't think its right to repeatedly rub someones nose in it.
I mean we all screw up from time to time,every one needs a second chance(well almost everyone...brinkofinsanity comes to mind for no second chances)

Cheers
Steve

( 832 ) · Post by **MagickalMemories** » Tue Mar 11, 2008 4:26 am

peacemystic wrote:
MagickalMemories wrote:
peacemystic wrote:if putting someones name on a personal DO NOT TRADE LIST that bad-mouths the other person everytime you post anything is not making everyone who trades with you a perpetual hostage to you,i don't know what is.

I'd much rather have some say"once you post of ref Bad or Good i'll post your ref for you" than to have my name plasted everwhere you post
Know what, PM. That's a DANG good point.
I hadn't thought about it that way.

Your words were enough to make me seriously consider NOT doing that.
I'm not totally convinced yet... but it's definite food for thought.

Eric
I thought about having a personal do not trade list myself at one stage,but for the reasons i stated i couldn't do it,it just seemed unfair when i thought about it,not that i don't have people that i wouldn't trade with,but i don't think its right to repeatedly rub someones nose in it.
I mean we all screw up from time to time,every one needs a second chance(well almost everyone...brinkofinsanity comes to mind for no second chances)

Cheers
Steve

Oh, no. I think I wasn't clear.

I HAVE a "DNT" list... and I do NOT deviate from it. Once you are on it, you are on it to stay.
It isn't easy to get on there, but it isn't TOO difficult, either.

What I was contemplating was NOT putting it in my sig line.

IF I decide to put it into my sig line, I'll make the list into a small(ish) image, post the image to P-Bucket & put the link in my sig line that shows the image. I would update the image as necessary.

THAT is the part I'm rethinking... Posting it, now having it.
Not everyone deserves a second chance, IMO. Those people make my DNT list.

I mean, if brinkosanity comes to mind for you, imagine if you'd encountered 5 people who you felt that exact same way about. Isn't it easier to have a list of them than try to remember them all?

Eric

Stanislav · Post by **Stanislav** » Tue Mar 11, 2008 4:54 am

Oh, don't think mine is gone....not by any means. The problem with mine was that not everyone on it was necessarily a bad trader, just somehow had irked me. For me to be a frequent poster (take that as several steps down from "Post Whore"), it just carried my personal quirks to a much broader audience. To one in particular, it just wasn't fair. As for the other two...well I hope they will fly straight. I'll never trade with them again, and hopefully the feedback I left will fulfill the cautionary warning to others.

Adunaphel · Post by **Adunaphel** » Tue Mar 11, 2008 6:49 am

OK. It seems like the longer I am here, the less I know. I have lurked on Bartertown for a LONG time, so I must be a virtual idiot by now!

Put a DNT list in the public eye? Is that what we are talking about?
I haven't seen one of those kinds of sig lines.

I think it just makes good sense to have a DNT list (mine is rather short because almost every trade has gone great here).
But if I was to see another trader who publicly list theirs, I would consider putting them on my DNT list.

Think about it. I could have a trade that through no fault of my own could go wrong (or maybe just a slight error, see Jay's post above). And that small error could live on forever here in plain sight of everybody.

That would be completely unfair to that trader.

Let's take Brinkosanity and Torrero for example. I'm sure Brink's trader name was getting written down in quite a few DNT lists. But, I would guess that Torrero's was also put in some lists even though the only thing he did wrong was ignore an experienced trader and go through with a trade that would turn out to be a rookie mistake.

To make that list public with trader names like that on there would only make you look bad.

Stanislav, if you left a negative for a trader and put him on your personal DNT list, wouldn't you consider that enough of a penalty to him? I think that listing his trader name in public would do you more harm than him. Right, or am I just missing something here?

Don't get me wrong, I am not upset, just curious. And I am certainly NOT trying to point a finger at you Stanislav. I am just trying to make a point. And to be honest, you could insert any trader with a healthy reference rating in the above paragraph.

As a point of fact, there is one trader on here that I had the BEST trading experience on Bartertown with. Now, I see his trader name in the BTR and he has a negative for a back-out. Now, if I was to see his trader name listed in a public DNT list, I would be hesitant about trading with the trader who had made his list public.

I guess my point is, that I think DNT lists should stay private. The negative references should be enough to carry the day against bad traders.

Karl

Stanislav · Post by **Stanislav** » Tue Mar 11, 2008 10:42 am

Karl,
Actually, I was the one that started the trend of the DNT lists (visible ones at least). I still have some reasons to like them, but I have decided to pull mine off of the sig line. I actually did it earlier in this discussion ( a couple of days ago) for reasons of my own and a couple that were brought up. I don't post ALOT but I do post, and I had gotten several PMs about people on my "list". I discussed exactly what the problem was with whoever took the time to PM whether it was the guy who personally just rubbed me the wrong way (and I made sure to note that that was what, not that he was a bad trader).

Sorry, I don't think it hampered any of my trading or selling here on this site. Like I said earlier, I also think it provided a red flag for the negatives I had left. Why? Because people don't always read the comments on the ITL, they see a number and go on. In another discussion I hoped that they would change a negative ref to -9 instead of -10. An odd number would serve a better point to just glancing at the number. However, my visible DNT list also had an individual who was not a bad trader, just someone I didn't want to deal with, and pasting him everywhere was unfair to him. That was the cause of the removal.