A few questions about references

[Stanislav]

if putting someones name on a personal DO NOT TRADE LIST that bad-mouths the other person everytime you post anything is not making everyone who trades with you a perpetual hostage to you,i don't know what is.

I'd much rather have some say"once you post of ref Bad or Good i'll post your ref for you" than to have my name plasted everwhere you post.

Cheers

And then you address a totally different thing. It has nothing to do with taking "hostages" (in this case feedback). Again totally different thing.

My Personal Do Not Trade List, and I am starting to see a couple of them in other people's sigs, is a screen for my own personal use. It filters out people I do not want to deal with. For personal or trading reasons. The last two on my personal list are from trade backouts. Not only did they back out of trades, they then decided to go around showing partial PMs to others explaining what "a bully I am". Kid stuff. I had another two on there that have since been banned. If you look at both of there feedback, I left a negative. As for the 1st, AFS and I had a PM altercation a while ago, and he has always been on my list. Not for any gross malpractice, just personal reasons for me not to want to trade or deal with. He has decided to put me on his as well. Great. Somehow I doubt that either one of our "Do Not Trade" lists will affect the other. I have even considered taking it down. The other two...I won't say never, but it will take a long while. Just like some people do not post feedback, SOME people only look at the # and fail to read any of the comments. So even though I personally use my list as a screen, I also reserve the right to use it as a banner ad for caution. I am not defaming them, and I really hope bt takes it for a slap on the wrist and continues on. The other, since he was a zero to start out and I took him to -10, he will probably just break all of the rules and come back with another username.

So even though I have explained my reasoning, I, and the one's that either using a "Do Not Trade" list in their sigs don't take it as a hostage situation. Someone not giving feedback until they recieved feedback...uhhh that's terroristic for people that are trying to build a reputation.

brettness-I understand that you feel that people at 80, 150, 400+ don't feel the bite as much as someone starting out, and it is true. However, all of us went through it as well. Just think what DarkSoul would have if he had 90% of his trades doumented instead of the 60-80% he probably has?

Peace-if I took this wrong my fault. Fire one across the bow if you want, but I stand behind my decision. I respect your opinion for what it is, a personal opinion.

[MEDEVL]

The one thing I will say is that I'm on the other side of the fence as far a WHEN feedback should be left. I understand what Stanislav is saying and how he does things but I disagree. I don't leave any feedback until a deal is done, everybody has their stuff and all is good in the world. Why?? Because although the arguement can be made that once one side sends his stuff he has fulfilled his obligation but I don't think that's the case. The trade as a whole is one big transaction and your part isn't totally done until you have both sent and recieved your stuff. What if somebody negotiates and communicates well, packages well, sends out right away and then once you send back there's a hitch of some sort. If you already left feedback what do you do?? I think it's better to wait until things are all the way done to leave it just in case something comes up. It's not a hostage thing, just a completeness thing.

[peacemystic]

The one thing I will say is that I'm on the other side of the fence as far a WHEN feedback should be left. I understand what Stanislav is saying and how he does things but I disagree. I don't leave any feedback until a deal is done, everybody has their stuff and all is good in the world. Why?? Because although the arguement can be made that once one side sends his stuff he has fulfilled his obligation but I don't think that's the case. The trade as a whole is one big transaction and your part isn't totally done until you have both sent and recieved your stuff. What if somebody negotiates and communicates well, packages well, sends out right away and then once you send back there's a hitch of some sort. If you already left feedback what do you do?? I think it's better to wait until things are all the way done to leave it just in case something comes up. It's not a hostage thing, just a completeness thing.

I agree with that!,i've also found that often once you have given feedback before the trade is complete,the other party doesn't give any feedback to you at all.

there is nothing terrorizing about waiting for someone else to give you feedback,they chose not to give feedback thats up to them,they just don't recieve any in return.

Stanislav-i mean't no personal attack,although i could see how it could be taken for that,and i'm sorry if i offened you,but to me putting peoples names on the do not trade list is branding someone for life on b-town.

you may not perceive the personal do not trade list as Hostage taking,however i do,just as you perceive not given someone a trade ref until they have given you one as a hostage taking even.

Given the chance of taking one or the other i know which one i would take,especially if i was a new inexperienced trader who didn't know wht he was doing and made a mistake,leave your bad ref and be done with it.

Cheers

[Stanislav]

...and then once you send back there's a hitch of some sort.

Jay,
When I say your part of the deal is done, it's done. If it is not complete, then obviously there is a reason to hold off.

Trader A wants to buy widgets from Trader B. Price is negotiated, then Trader A sends X amount of money.

Trader A has completed his part of the deal.

Trader B should leave feedback. Anything that happens from that point on has nothing to do with Trader A.

Trader B sends out his part of the deal and it arrives to Trader A. There is a piece missing from the widget lot. Trader B should contact Trader A and inform him of the missing piece. Trader B now knows of the problem and it is up to him whether to tell Trader A he doesn't have it, has it and will send it, or to tell Trader A to go leap off a cliff.

After Trader B has made clear his intentions (and follows up on them) then Trader A should leave appropriate feedback. Deal is complete.

What kind of hitch could come up that would break this process? Didn't send the right goods? Well then, it is not complete and I wouldn't ask anyone to leave feedback then. Wrong amount of cash? Same thing. If you are worried that maybe you did something wrong, then there is a problem, and you are hoping the other will leave feedback so that you are in the clear before leaving them feedback....that is holding feedback hostage in another sense, but still hostage.

Not pointing this at you Jay. I know that you have always been an awesome trade partner for years and years. You just happened to answer, so don't take it that I am trying to blast you. Farthest thing from it. If I forgot to leave you a feedback once, I apologize. I'm sure I have left multiple ones for you though.

Rich

[vesrian]

The one thing I will say is that I'm on the other side of the fence as far a WHEN feedback should be left. I understand what Stanislav is saying and how he does things but I disagree. I don't leave any feedback until a deal is done, everybody has their stuff and all is good in the world. Why?? Because although the arguement can be made that once one side sends his stuff he has fulfilled his obligation but I don't think that's the case. The trade as a whole is one big transaction and your part isn't totally done until you have both sent and recieved your stuff. What if somebody negotiates and communicates well, packages well, sends out right away and then once you send back there's a hitch of some sort. If you already left feedback what do you do?? I think it's better to wait until things are all the way done to leave it just in case something comes up. It's not a hostage thing, just a completeness thing.

I agree completely with this. That's why i've almost always waited until after the trade is completely finished before leaving feedback, even if i already got my part. That typically means that the person who receives their stuff last would be the first to leave feedback. I don't see it as a 'hostage' thing, just a practicallity.
But then i'm not waiting for them to leave feedback, just for them to say that everything arrived and is as expected. If i get a PM that says 'i got the stuff today, everything looks good.", i consider the deal done (assuming they already sent their part) and i'll leave feedback regardless of whether they have or not.

[Stanislav]

I agree with that!,i've also found that often once you have given feedback before the trade is complete,the other party doesn't give any feedback to you at all.

there is nothing terrorizing about waiting for someone else to give you feedback,they chose not to give feedback thats up to them,they just don't recieve any in return.

Stanislav-i mean't no personal attack,although i could see how it could be taken for that,and i'm sorry if i offened you,but to me putting peoples names on the do not trade list is branding someone for life on b-town.

you may not perceive the personal do not trade list as Hostage taking,however i do,just as you perceive not given someone a trade ref until they have given you one as a hostage taking even.

Given the chance of taking one or the other i know which one i would take,especially if i was a new inexperienced trader who didn't know wht he was doing and made a mistake,leave your bad ref and be done with it.

Cheers

None taken. You know, I started this trend, and I know I can't stop it, but I will end mine. Check the sig.

I understand that some people won't leave feedback if there's is already left, but like I said earlier, by not taking the step yourself, you are just circle reasoning this to death and perpetuating the problem. If some of the veteran traders don't do it, we can never expect the newer traders to do it.

It's kind of like the cocaine commercial from a couple of years ago.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dAmqaAWi1iU

Circle reasoning at it's best.

Not that our hobby has ever been compared to cocaine addiction or anything...

[vesrian]

Let me adjust your scenario a bit.

...and then once you send back there's a hitch of some sort.

Jay,
When I say your part of the deal is done, it's done. If it is not complete, then obviously there is a reason to hold off.

Trader A wants to buy widgets from Trader B. Price is negotiated, then Trader A sends X amount of money.

Trader A has completed his part of the deal.

Trader B should leave feedback. Anything that happens from that point on has nothing to do with Trader A.

Ok, so Trader B leaves feedback saying how he sold X to trader A, who paid quickly and was very easy to deal with. Then he sends the package.

Trader A neglects to pick up package, it gets returned to trader B. Trader A refuses to pay for the additional shipping to send it again and decides he doesn't want the stuff after all and demands all his money back.

Is the feedback that Trader B left still valid??

That's an example of a hitch. In fact, something similar to this happened to me in a trade. Admittedly, it's not a common scenario, but it happens.

[Stanislav]

Very uncommon to the point of very rare.

[vesrian]

You're right it's not a common event. There are other scenarions that may be more likely. You were asking what kind of hitch could come up. I just picked the first example that came to mind.
The point is you can avoid having to deal with the reference problems from those, admittedly uncommon, events by just waiting until after everyone's got their stuff to leave references. I don't think it takes any more or less time to do references later, but it does avoid the small chance of having to go back and fix things later. So i suppose it's just whether you want to avoid the problem or assume it's not going to happen. I choose the former. It looks like you choose the latter. Either way i guess.
I just want to point out there is a reason for waiting until after a deal is completely finished before leaving a reference. But once the deal is over, and everything went the way it's going to go, there should be no reason to play the "i'll leave one when you do" game

[Stanislav]

...But once the deal is over, and everything went the way it's going to go, there should be no reason to play the "i'll leave one when you do" game.

Admittedly it seems we differ on the method, but not the result. Thank you for bringing up a hitch. Rare, but still possible.

Rich

[peacemystic]

But once the deal is over, and everything went the way it's going to go, there should be no reason to play the "i'll leave one when you do" game

Its not a game,its a method to deal with a problem,and it works,how is it any different to the lower rating ships first,if a trader such as yourself has a rating of 100 want to trade with me,rating 300,is there really any reason for you to send first,you have a good rating,there is no reason for me to think you'd rip me off yet still we have the unwritten rule of lower rating ships first,again its a method of dealing with a problem that works,at the nuts and bolts level its the same thing.

no one is holding a gun to anyones head,you still have the free will to say "Sod off"

Cheers

[Adunaphel]

Insidius, I actually wasn't refering to you. I knew about your situation and was just glad to see you back on the site.

I have to say that I didn't start the thread to discuss "reference hostage taking". I understand about forgetting or maybe just being too lazy to leave a reference but it does hurt the system if you don't leave the reference.

For example, I have traded with some rather new traders here. They obliged me to ship first and throughout the deal they were very good traders. When I received my end of the deals, I left a positive reference for them feeling that Bartertown had gotten some good new blood. That's great, but then I am left waiting for them to leave me a reference....

I agree, Jay, that a trader should wait to leave a reference until the deal is over. But, at some point somebody is leaving a reference first.

I know that it got so bad on eBay for me, that I would just leave the feedback for a buyer if they paid and I would just hope that I got my feedback back from them. I have a 306 rating on eBay but really should have about 400!

As for the relevence of the above paragraph, because I know that stating anything about eBay here upsets certain folks. I would hate to look back in a year or two and think "Wow! Instead of 80 refernces on B-town, I should have 140!"

I will send out some PM's and see what happens.

Karl

[peacemystic]

Insidius, I actually wasn't refering to you. I knew about your situation and was just glad to see you back on the site.

I have to say that I didn't start the thread to discuss "reference hostage taking". I understand about forgetting or maybe just being too lazy to leave a reference but it does hurt the system if you don't leave the reference.

For example, I have traded with some rather new traders here. They obliged me to ship first and throughout the deal they were very good traders. When I received my end of the deals, I left a positive reference for them feeling that Bartertown had gotten some good new blood. That's great, but then I am left waiting for them to leave me a reference....

I agree, Jay, that a trader should wait to leave a reference until the deal is over. But, at some point somebody is leaving a reference first.

I know that it got so bad on eBay for me, that I would just leave the feedback for a buyer if they paid and I would just hope that I got my feedback back from them. I have a 306 rating on eBay but really should have about 400!

As for the relevence of the above paragraph, because I know that stating anything about eBay here upsets certain folks. I would hate to look back in a year or two and think "Wow! Instead of 80 refernces on B-town, I should have 140!"

I will send out some PM's and see what happens.

Karl

Sorry for helping side track your post dude

[Stanislav]

Same here, wasn't the intention.

[vesrian]

Sorry for contributing to the diversion. Good luck getting your refs.