This is seriously how we'd treat someone trying to help?

[Lormax]

viewtopic.php?t=58702

[jagavahn]

Absolutely.....

This site has a enormous member count. To keep it running smoothly the rules need to be enforced strictly, especially in the Bad Trade area.

There are two areas on the site that a little leeway is given in, post general warnings in those, or better yet, PM a mod or Watchmen and let them do it.

[usernamesareannoying]

i agree with jagavahn.
rules, just like gravity are not just a good idea, theyre the law!

[Lormax]

This is the "subject" line, or whatever you'd want to call it, under the Bad Trader Forum on the Bartertown.com Trading Board Forum Index

"People to watch out for! If you commit mail fraud, its a Felony."

If I was new to the site, and was looking to warn people about someone that "clicked" in my head from a previous site I was on, that looks like its the best choice.

Perhaps a much more strongly worded warning there would be better?

"STRICT rules for posting in here. Please read them, contained within"

Considering GW's new practice of going after bits sellers (If you haven't heard, Neal @ TheWarStore has 90 days to remove his bits selling from online cart sales), I'd want a site like this to stay as friendly and helpful as possible. Someone simply WARNING us of someone out there I would deem as helpful. How many of you would've liked to see a post like that about Ticknor?

The trouble is, there's nowhere else that would seem logical to someone new to post that kind of information. Reading through the rules in that forum, the rules are about how to post something in there when you have a complaint about a bartertown trade. This wasn't the case.

Now if you want to go by RAW...he didn't have a bartertown trade, so shouldn't post there. But seriously, are we playing 40k or are we trying to watch each others backs?

[Linrandir]

The first forum on the list is "BARTERTOWN FORUM RULES."
The subheader is "Read Them. Learn Them. And for goodness sake, FOLLOW THEM."

They include rules on posting in the Bad Trader Forum. They also include the ever-present and NEVER FREAKING USED Rule #0: Ask Me FIRST. No one does. It's amazing, when people do stuff and then try to beg forgiveness. Maybe they think that forgiveness is easier than permission.

No one asked me about this situation. The rules are painfully clear. The rules have received majority community support. Too much stupid sh!t happens when the rules are not executed fairly. Ergo, the rules will be enforced equally upon first time users and/or traders with ratings in the hundreds.

So while this person may have meant well, and I cast no dispersions upon them, we all know what road is paved with good intentions.

[MagickalMemories]

It's amazing, when people do stuff and then try to beg forgiveness. Maybe they think that forgiveness is easier than permission.

Well, there is an old saying that it is easier to beg forgiveness than to ask permission.
Personally, I never really fell for that saying... but it exists.

Too much stupid sh!t happens when the rules are not executed fairly. Ergo, the rules will be enforced equally upon first time users and/or traders with ratings in the hundreds.

I can attest to this part, personally. Nobody is above it. If you break the unbreakable rules or push the "loose" ones past their straining point, it WILL come back on you.

Eric

[CypherIsGod]

I do feel bad that the guy is going to probably take a vacation from the site for his post. He was just trying to help. It just should have been done a different way. What Kaazz should have done, which has already been said, is email a mod. Alert the moderator and let him take care of it.

The other problem with kaazz's post, understanding that the fact he posted in the BTR forum is the big issue, is that he is a guy with absolute zero feedback. The person he called out, on the other hand, has a feedback rating of 18. That means he has had at least 9 successful trades on Bartertown since joining a year ago. That's a pretty good start in my book. While I appreciate the warning, I am all about the feedback on this site to guide me. When people post a link to the eBay feedback, I don't even bother looking at it. I don't care. I only care about your Bartertown feedback rating. If it's good, I'll trade with you, if it's bad, I won't. Very simple...

I would trade with and trust eldarFreak with his 18 feedback over someone that just joined and has zero feedback any day.

[CypherIsGod]

I do agree with you Lormax. It is very likely that it is not clear there are special rules for the Bad Trader forum. Like you said, it just has the blurb about mail fraud in the forum description on the index. When you go into the forum, there is a sticky that says "Announcement: Bad Trader Reporting Rules - Caveat Emptor!", but there is nothing that explicitly states that the BTR forum is a special forum with VERY strict rules. I would guess if that was worded as "READ THIS BEFORE POSTING IN THIS FORUM OR DIE!", that would make sure that people knew exactly what was expected in a post in that forum. All right.... maybe not "OR DIE" but something similar would help. Those of us that have been around know what is ok to post in that forum, but I would guess that kaazz truly did not realize he did anything wrong until he saw MB's reply. I'm not trying to give the guy an excuse, but it would certainly help this in the future, I would think.

[NuWishA]

So today I was sitting in the cafeteria eating lunch. There are several doors with large red signs on them, with a circle with a slash through it. They say "DO NOT USE! ALARM WILL SOUND"

I watched three people try to use the doors, despite the large bright signs. One guy actually walked up, and spent a few minutes reading the sign, and then tried to open the door.

[npd_bigdaddy]

So today I was sitting in the cafeteria eating lunch. There are several doors with large red signs on them, with a circle with a slash through it. They say "DO NOT USE! ALARM WILL SOUND"

I watched three people try to use the doors, despite the large bright signs. One guy actually walked up, and spent a few minutes reading the sign, and then tried to open the door.

Well, just goes to show you that a large majority of people are inherently dumb.........

Just like how it boggles my mind every time you hear of someone shooting themselves while cleaning their guns. Uhhh, say what??

Not that this poster is dumb by any means, because yeah, I feel a little for the guy myself........

I hope Lin and the gang go a little light on the suspension

Erik

[Morlock-Bloodletter]

Lormax...

Considering the thread in question broke several rules on this site, there are OTHER implications that tend to stick out. The biggest is "heresay". He said she said. That's NEVER been an acceptable form of proof here on Bartertown, EVER. Why should it be now? Because you say someone was trying to help? Had YOUR name been listed in that post would you still have that same opinion or would you have PM'd the Admin until you were blue in the face to have it removed? Thought so.

Right now, with NO PROOF or EVIDENCE we have one user claiming another user is a thief. Sure the user posted a couple other sites and has made some claims that could link the accused to the other sites but it's still heresay. AND we have no idea how strict the rules are on the other site to define what a "bad trade" is over there or what is "bannable" over there. That is why we have rules in place, to give every user here the same right to a "fair" trial, so to speak. Had we gotten the info PRIOR to the public smearing of the accused we could've then emailed and ASKED the admin on the other site what happened and then made up our minds as to whether or not it's relevent to Bartertown.

What should have happened, had the accuser been bothered to read the damn rules in the first place, is a PM to a Mod or Admin with the information so that we could determine if it was acceptable! But no, let's just allow ANYONE to start plastering accusations on a whim. There is a reason this site is the top trading site on the web and our rules are a part of that.

Yes other bad traders have been linked to other sites, namely one Mr Ticknor BUT it was determined and carefully researched BEFORE anything was linked to the MANY BAD TRADES THAT HAPPENED HERE. We didn't chase Ticknor down FROM other sites, we found the other sites AFTER the bad trades here. .

Did we then start going to other sites that we visit and start posting threads that claim Ticknor is a thief when he may not even be on that site? Nope, what we did do is send all the pertinent info to the ADMIN of the sites we found similar email addresses and user names. Most listened and some decided to ignore it.

It's called common sense, people around here need to start using it or by Grabthar there'll be bannin's next! [small slice of humor].

Now here's what is going to happen next. Once the punishment is determined on the broken rules by the accuser, that thread will be moved to a NON public forum and thoroughly researched. Does it suck that a punishment has to be stuck on the accuser when he posted very useful information? Maybe, but I don't really care. In fact when it comes to breaking rules that are so blatantly clear, concise and listed with consequences for said rule breaking... I have no guilt or shame in having to suspend or ban anyone who doesn't use the extra MINUTE it would've taken to read the damn rules in the first place.

Use common sense and stop being lazy is the moral here NOT "the mean Admin are going to punish someone who just wanted to help".

Oh and BTW, this isn't Warhammer, it's a website. RAW has nothing to do with ANYTHING here because unlike GW, we the Admin will clarify any questions about the rules, BUT YOU HAVE TO ASK BEFORE YOU POST!!!!

Cypher-Having a thread in the BTR forum labelled "BTR FORUMS RULES" is MORE than enough to show that there are BTR FORUM RULES! How is it possible that anyone could argue otherwise? Ignorance of the rules has NEVER been an excuse. So "Ignorance of the Rules because they aren't labelled the way I think they should be" has no chance of flying with me either.

[starslayer]

Ok, he broke the rules here by posting that about EldarFreak. Is anyone going to actually take a look & see if there is truth behind the warning?? If he is really stealing from people on other sites, that doesn't look good. Bartertown members should know.

[ancientsociety]

The rules for posting BTRs are RIGHT AT THE TOP OF THE FORUM! He didn't read them, end of story.

Also, the rules are applied equally to all. Just like in any of our home countries, we each have equal protection under the law. but that also means we have equal responsibility to abide by those laws and (theoretically) equal punishment if we do not follow them. Ignorace of the law is not a defense.

Most of us long-time users have, at some point or another, done stuff against the rules or pissed off the mods (myself included - remember that Lin and Morlock? Ah, good times...) and it was our fault. We took responsibility and moved on. Rules are (and always should be) applied equally to all users, regardless of rating.

Ok, he broke the rules here by posting that about EldarFreak. Is anyone going to actually take a look & see if there is truth behind the warning?? If he is really stealing from people on other sites, that doesn't look good. Bartertown members should know.

It has nothing to do with BT. If he's responsible here, then NO ONE can post neg feedback about him on another site.

[CypherIsGod]

Cypher-Having a thread in the BTR forum labelled "BTR FORUMS RULES" is MORE than enough to show that there are BTR FORUM RULES! How is it possible that anyone could argue otherwise? Ignorance of the rules has NEVER been an excuse. So "Ignorance of the Rules because they aren't labelled the way I think they should be" has no chance of flying with me either.

The only argument I could present is that 9 out of the last 10 BTR posts were not correct. (This is not an exact number, by the way, I am going off memory) It wasn't until the next post from a forum member that alerts the OP to get their stuff straight and get the required information up in their post before an admin sees it. If the majority of the recent posts in that forum have been wrong, maybe something more blatant to let people know that it is a very special forum on the board would help things out.

It is certainly not negatively effecting me when people get suspended or banned for not reading the forum rules. I am not trying to give them an excuse either. I'm just throwing an idea out there. I love Bartertown. All the rules that are in place is a huge part of what makes it successful in my mind. I know that if someone has good feedback on here, I can trust it. That's huge! Thank you for a great site. If you don't think it would help to have more blatant warnings in the BTR forum, I'm definitely not going to be upset. I know the rules well enough. I even usually follow them all.
Thanks for listening.

[insidius]

I would just like to point out that just today, a member alerted me to an individual, via private message, who has multiple accounts, and has negative refs on both accounts.

This individual, by all evidence, intends to continue abusing both of his accounts to cheat others.

That was put to a stop today because someone did the right thing.


That is all.