Shipping Damage Question

[fibonacci]

Note: I pose this question, as my experience has been what I state below, I cannot think of a time when the question was specifically asked, and I don't see any official take on it, so I ask what other's opinions/experiences are on the matter

Edit: All of this assumes that a good faith effort was made by both parties to package things well.

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In the past, I have never recieved anything broken, though I have had some things I sent get damaged in shipping. For the purposes of this post, I am referring to significant damage, such as breaking a weapon on a tank, or breaking a wing on a bloodthirster, not little things like an arm fell off. I am referring to damage that cannot be repaired without having replacement bits.

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My perspective on shipping damage has always been that in a trade, each party is responsible for getting thier goods to the other party in good condition. This means that if I am sending a large box of models, and they get damaged in shipping, the other party to the trade is not required to accept them. Depending on what they wanted to do, they could (a) take them and ask for some additional consideration or (b) return them to me at my expense. Either option is perfectly viable. In the case of (a), if I have questions, I would expect them to be willing to provide some kind of evidence of the damage, be it pics or whatnot.

If I choose to get insurance on a package that I ship as part of a trade, that is my option and serves to protect me, in the case that major damage occurs. Purchasing insurance on a trade package is my responsibility, as most trades have each party take care of thier own shipping.

Conversly, in the case where someone purchased something from me, and they payed for shipping, then shipping damage is the responsibility of the purchaser. As they payed for shipping, they had the option of purchasing insurance and chose not to, (or just didn't think about it) they are responsible for damage that occurs.

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Recently, I had a package arrive with a couple of snapped pieces. It wasn't a huge deal, other than the sprue that they come on was a $30+ sprue. We have come to a deal regarding it, but he (being a new trader) initally expressed some displeasure at being held responsible for the damage.

What is the general consensus on shipping damages in a trade?

[porkuslime]

In my opinion, each trade is generally going to be specific in whose responsibility it is..

If I ship something, and make a very good effort to package in foam, brace and wrap the models... and then some yahoo in the PO drops a huge set of encyclopedias on it.. it is NEITHER parties fault, and is just a fact o' life.

If I bung models loose into a shoebox, and ship it.. yeah.. my fault, and I should make good.

Minor breakages happen, and if it is obvious that the sender TRIED to protect the parcel and contents.. I let it go.

-Porkuslime

[fibonacci]

My rule of thumb for whether it is mainly the post office's fault or not is if the main box is damaged. I agree that sometimes things just happen when packaging is poor or moderate. I personally will always package models in a box, braced so they cannot move, and cushioned with peanuts. Even this is not foolproof, as I have had models break when shipped this way, but it shows a good faith effort to protect them.

Since posting, I actually recieved the second of this same model that I traded for from 2 different individuals. This one was packed well, but came apart in shipping. None of the pieces were actually broken, the glue bonds just separated. While it is a pain to finish the disassembly, clean off the old glue, and rebuild it, I have no problem doing that, as it was packed well and nothing need replaced.

In the case of the initial post, it was a fair number (26) of models wrapped in toilet paper, in a box where there was room for them to move around if the box got shaken or rolled. It appeared that the box was shaken and the large model hit the side of the box and the other models, as about half the glue joints were popped and several of the protruding guns were actually broken in half. Several of the smaller models were also broken, but they were fairly easy to fix with some glue and putty, so I didn't really care about them. In this case, I feel justified in asking for some additional consideration for the large model, as it is useless without significant effort making custom guns for it, or purchasing a $30+ dollar sprue to get replacement parts.

For me, when shipping, delivery confirmation is a MUST. Nothing gets sent without it. First, te post office tends to be much more careful with something that is tracked. The online tracker only shows acceptance and delivery, but if you take the number to the post office, they can tell you exactly where it is and who saw it last, so they tend to be more careful. Additionally, DC proves both that the item was sent and recieved.

For a trade, I will usually insure any trade package worth more than about $50, just as a precaution, and because I consider myself responsible for damage on things I ship for a trade. If I am selling something, I will always offer insurance at cost, but people very rarely take me up on it, and I have no sympathy for them if they refused insurance and the models get damaged despite my good faith effort to package them well.

[Linrandir]

I'd say if there's a good faith effort to protect the package contents, it's neither party's fault - but certainly the shipping agent's (UPS, USPS, Fed-Ex, etc).

But that's just my opinion.

[Anglacon]

If it looked like he took the effort to pack it well, and YOU did not demand insurance, it is your responsibility, not his. If packed badly, he has to eat it.

that is the fairest way, I think. In your example, if they pay for shipping, you could put it in an old ammo case with no protection, and it is buyer beware (not that you WOULD do that....)

It all depends if the shipper took care to package well.

[Bloodcircle]

I'd say if there's a good faith effort to protect the package contents, it's neither party's fault - but certainly the shipping agent's (UPS, USPS, Fed-Ex, etc).

I kinda agree to some extent...
But it wouldn't happen as often if the person packing up the parcel did a good job packing it. I cannot count how many packages I've received where it'd be a big box for a small amount of items inside with the items just moving all around or like.. how many times the person would just threw it inside a regular envelope w/o padding (I've received many a envelope w/o anything inside because it had torn during shipping.
It's actually quite rare when the damage is actually caused by the shipping agent when the package has been packed well.

What really urks me is when you pay a good amount of money for S & H and the person don't package the item decently.

[kturock]

it's the shipping party's fault.

speaking from experience as a postal employee:

YOUR ITEMS ARE NOT CARRIED BY ELVES, GNOMES OR CUTE LITTLE BUNNIES!

they are put on a series of transport belts that can move up to 15mph. they can have an item up to 70 pounds placed, dropped or slid on top.

the can sit on the tarmac, in the rain, sleet, snow and sun for hours while the airline personnel load the planes.

i had someone ship fishtank water, in a tuperware bowl, placed in a tyvek [nylon] bag. i got splashed by water from said fish tank. the shipper was sending it to lab to be anylazed, to see why his fish were dieing.

if you file an insurance claim, and the items were not wrapped, packaged correctly; guess what. you won't get paid.

NEWSPAPER IS NOT AN INSULATOR. neither are shopping bags. if you can crush it to reshape it, so can time, vibraition and movement.

i've packed vases, computers, monitors and heavy equipment. i've never had anything broken.

use styrofoam 'peanuts', air-filled bags and bubble wrap. i shipped an entire tackle box filled with epic minis, plastic and metal. eldar, ork and imperial/marine. the recipient said it took him awhile just to unwrap them. most all the minis were wrapped, as well as, the box it self. the shipping carton was reinforced with 1 inch stryofoam on all 6 sides.

buy cheap styrofoam coollers if you can't afford or don't want to buy peanuts. fill ziplock bags with air. if you have something extremely fragile, custom make padding for it. how? fill a box with ziplock bags that have been filled with the spray foam. you can buy it in hardware stores to fill holes and cracks. it hardens with air contack. seal all but a small section of the bag, just big enough for the straw nozzle and fill it with the foam. it takes the shape of the box and the item. it holds it in place and pads it.

[fibonacci]

I agree with kturock that things are rarely broken when shipped/packaged well. The biggest problem, such as these two cases where things were rattling around, is that many people don't have an idea of what proper packaging is.

Also, in response to the comment about how the insurance will not pay if the items were not well packaged. If the insurance refuses to pay for that reason, then I would say that the shipper is responsible to make good on the deal, either giving more consideration or canceling the deal and paying return shipping.

Again, this question only applies if the models were packed such that a reasonable person would expect them to arrive intact. Obviously, if they are tossed in an envelope or loose, then the person who shipped them should be held responsible.

[Bloodcircle]

fill a box with ziplock bags that have been filled with the spray foam. you can buy it in hardware stores to fill holes and cracks. it hardens with air contack. seal all but a small section of the bag, just big enough for the straw nozzle and fill it with the foam. it takes the shape of the box and the item. it holds it in place and pads it.

What a very nifty idea

[kturock]

i learned it from 1 of our suppliers. you can buy pre-made bags. just pull the strip and it 'inflates'. my way is just a cheap copy.

[fibonacci]

i learned it from 1 of our suppliers. you can buy pre-made bags. just pull the strip and it 'inflates'. my way is just a cheap copy.

My company used to use the pre-made ones. They are cool, but EXPENSIVE. We used to pay $15 each for them, and use 3 per box. It was worth it though, the items we were shipping were in the 15 grand apiece.

[NuWishA]

Ask Lin about the cryx i sent him. Someone did a belly flop on that thing and nothing managed to get hurt at all.

Because I packed the crap out of it.

[Alsiaie]

When I sent nuwisha four SM rhinos, I had more postal weight just in wrapping than actual product, not including the box. It is always the shipper's responsibility to make sure the items are packaged safely. It is NOT their responsibility for the package itself to arrive undamaged. There is a difference. If the items are packaged safely, and the box arrives damaged, then no trader is at fault. Even if damaged is done to miniatures. Just apply common sense. There is no way a person can't figure out if a trader did his best to send items safely.

Unfortunately this may not apply to packages going outside your home country. I once sent a very well painted great unclean one to canada. Customs opened it up. The model arrived broken in every possible spot. Half of my packing material was missing from the box. But of course my trade rating backed that up with no issues. We both knew Customs was at fault.

[fibonacci]

Alsiaie make a good point. If the box is crushed, no amount of good packaging will save you, same with customs. But if the box is not damaged, and the items inside are, then that pretty much defines poor packaging.

I would concede that there is no fault in the case of the box itself being crushed.

[NuWishA]

I blame Alsiaie for the storm bolters breaking off in shipping.












Oh wait I knew those were broken off before I bought them.. nevermind.