Changing the use of BTR

[Walls]

After having experienced it myself and seeing it happen again (for a trader I am getting suspciious of myself), I think there needs to be a change in BTR's. It seems that the poster, the complainant, takes more crap then then guy on the other end who screwed him.

I would suggest that the second there is a legit BTR, the person who it's against is temp banned/suspended from forum use except to PM. He should also be IP tracked to see if he doesn't trade under other names. I think once a duplicate name (rather, two different names) comes up on a Bad Trader, immediate ban.

I hate that the person doing the report has to put all this effort in to make sure the posts are chronological, put in the right spot, properly reported, none missing, etc. Sometimes you'll have DOZENS of communications between you. That is a LOT of effort to probably not reclaim what you are owed. It's a LOT simpler for everyone to simple c/p the entire thread and read from the bottom up.

Basically, I think more needs to be done about bad traders and less should be done by (and against!) the complainant. Too many threads make him the bad guy.

[blackspade]

Temp banning is very unlikely if not out of the question.

as far as hoops for the BTR, A well written and documented BTR helps everyone, including the poster.
It makes it easier for the admins and follow traders to figure out what happened and pull relevant info that might help them track down the perp on your behalf.

If you think that the BTR poster is getting beat up, it is probably because the BTR is difficult to make heads or tails of. It may also be premature, as sufficient time has not been given or contact made to resolve the issue without resorting to a BTR. Also, information may be missing or 'ommitted' as 'irrelevant'. Tip: Post all of the messages in their entirety.

My $.02

[MagickalMemories]

Well, the system isn't perfect by a long shot. There's no denying that.
Truth is, though, that it works pretty well, as is.

Unles I specify, terms should be read as generically as possible ( "You or Yours" refers to the complaintant, not the OP... etc.)

One thing to keep in mind is that the staf volunteers here. We also volunteer to help with BTR's. There's no promise of assistance or resolutions for BTR's, though we DO try our best to help. Keep in mind, though, that it is YOUR job to resolve the BTR. Not ours or anyone else's. Any assistance you get is voluntary. The only place we step in is when we decide it's gone long enough an inact a banning. If YOU drop it, though... so will we. Look at EVIL INC's recent' BTR as a good example of how to stay on top of your BTR. Although he has nothing *new* to report, he still updates the BTR regularly to keep it fresh and in mind. Those are the ones that get the most help from staff & other volunteers.

Now, to specifically address a couple points:

I would suggest that the second there is a legit BTR, the person who it's against is temp banned/suspended from forum use except to PM. He should also be IP tracked to see if he doesn't trade under other names. I think once a duplicate name (rather, two different names) comes up on a Bad Trader, immediate ban.

Without going into specifics, I will say that we do have means of monitoring IP sharing between accounts. It isn't perfect, but it does a good job for us, overall.
Your immediate ban suggestion for multiple BTR's will never be implemented. Period. There is too much room for variance. Just because someone screws up twice doesn't mean that he's a BAD TRADER (re: honesty). It means he screwed up more than once. Bans are reserved for bad people, or people who violate the "big rules" or just go out of their way to piss off the staff. If someone screws up his side of a trade 4 different times, but "makes good" on each one, there's no cause to ban him.

Now, if someone's caught multi-accounting... that's an insta-ban about 99.9% of the time.

As for suspending/banning for legit BTR's... I don't see it happening. Not across the board. See, there are too many variances in a "Bad Trade" to paint them all with the same brush. Rest assured that we keep our eyes open for people with BTR's, though.

I hate that the person doing the report has to put all this effort in to make sure the posts are chronological, put in the right spot, properly reported, none missing, etc. Sometimes you'll have DOZENS of communications between you. That is a LOT of effort to probably not reclaim what you are owed. It's a LOT simpler for everyone to simple c/p the entire thread and read from the bottom up.

There is no rule that says you have to have your BTR in chronological order. None say it has to be legible. The only rule is that it has to have the complete information from your trade.
If you don't have it chronological, and if it isn't legible... you're just not going to get many people wanting to help you.
Why should we use up our time trying to decipher the junk you posted because you didn't want to take the time to make it as easy as possible for us to read? If you don't want to make it as easy as possible for those people volunteering to help you to do so, then they're not going to feel particularly enthusiastic about doing it (thus, my sig line).
It is NOT a rule, though... and is also something I can never see being made into one. I know I wouldn't vote in favor of it.

Know what is simple, too, and doesn't take a huge amount of time? The "quote" button.
If you open one of the PM's in the string, hit "reply," then scroll to the bottom of the history that pops up, you can "quote" every message. Start at the bottom then work your way up. It'll put every message in there, chronologically, AND will have each message separated into it's own little box.
Just saying...

Basically, I think more needs to be done about bad traders and less should be done by (and against!) the complainant. Too many threads make him the bad guy.

The only threads making the complaintant the "bad guy" are the ones where he doesn't post the proper information... and it's deserved. I think that, if someone posted a BTR on you but didn't post the proper information, you'd want him roasted on an open fire, too. Right? I know I would.

You used to see a lot more "general member" input of little help before we enacted the stricter rules for posting in someone's BTR. There used to be a lot of commentary;
"Sue him"
"Call the cops"
"This guy sounds like a dirt bag"
"You should post your mesages in chronological order"

You see a lot less of that, now.
Mostly, now, you only get STAFF telling you that you'll get more help if you post in chrono order, amke it easy to read, etc.

Eric

[Dakkar98]

There is no rule that says you have to have your BTR in chronological order. None say it has to be legible. The only rule is that it has to have the complete information from your trade.
If you don't have it chronological, and if it isn't legible... you're just not going to get many people wanting to help you.
Why should we use up our time trying to decipher the junk you posted because you didn't want to take the time to make it as easy as possible for us to read? If you don't want to make it as easy as possible for those people volunteering to help you to do so, then they're not going to feel particularly enthusiastic about doing it (thus, my sig line).

Walls,
Here is an example of what eric is talking about
Read through this BTR: BTR DALOONIESHAMAN - Resolved Unamicably, see where the PM string isn't in order and how hard it is to keep track of. Now scroll down to the PM string that I took an hour of MY time to clean up to help make it easier to read.

Now go into the Deadbeats & Backouts and look and my back out reports.
Each of those Backout reports took me about 5 minutes to do using the exact method Eric described (quoted below).

Know what is simple, too, and doesn't take a huge amount of time? The "quote" button.
If you open one of the PM's in the string, hit "reply," then scroll to the bottom of the history that pops up, you can "quote" every message. Start at the bottom then work your way up. It'll put every message in there, chronologically, AND will have each message separated into it's own little box.
Just saying...

I add the dates and times into mine manually, open the report in another window, hit CTRL+A to select it all, hit CTRL+C to copy it, the hit CTRL+V to paste it all in my report, sum it up at the top, title it, preview it and I'm done.

A little of my time and I didn't receive any messages questioning the validity or the content of the post, nor did I receive any messages giving me flak about the posts.

Some Advice: CYA! Do NOT Delete ANY message (PM or E-mail) pertaining to a trade until the trade is resolved. PERIOD.

Here is how I keep them straight:

• You can add and rename folders to your mailbox. Here is the list of mine:
  • Inbox
    Saved Messages
    Trades Gone Bad
    Trades with Problems
    Trades in Progress
    Trades Awaiting Feedback
    Backup
    Outbox
    Sent messages

When I complete negotiations for a trade I move all messages sent to and received from that trader to my "Trades in Progress" box.
When their Items arrive I move all of those messages from the "Trades in Progress" box to the "Trades Awaiting Feedback" box.
When they get their items and post my feedback, I post their feedback and then delete the messages pertaining to that trade.

If something starts to go "wrong" (Items not arriving, or missing pieces, or not as described),
I move the messages from the "Trades in Progress" box to the "Trades with Problems".
Contact them and be cordial, not accusatory. Assume that a mistake has been made. Do NOT Assume they are trying to rip you off.
Depending on how things work out, they either get moved to "Trades Awaiting Feedback" or "Trades Gone Bad".
Generally after I have moved someone's messages to the "Trades Gone Bad", I'll begin composing the BTR or BO Report and copy it into a Word Document or send it to myself. That way I just have to add the 1 or 2 final messages to it and it's done.
Once I post the BTR or BO Report, I move the messages to the "Backup" folder (in case I need to refer to them later).
I only delete the items from the "Backup" folder after a couple of years have passed, or if I need to because I have run out of room, which isn't going to happen anytime soon as I am at 79 out of 750 messages.


Have I mentioned that I am CDO?!?
I also have the Name, Address, Date, List of items Sent and Received for every trade I have done since the beginning of 2008. All saved in a Word Document.

[starslayer]

And I am forever in your debt Dakkar98. Some of us just dont have any computer skills. Sorry.