One last question: "Counts as" or New Army

[Brian Adair]

Folks,

After I am finished with my SW army, I am considering moving on to a mech force. I really like the Baal Predators so I am thinking going with Blood Angels or Ravenguard. My question to you as opponents both in basement games and competitive tourney games is if I painted up everything in SW colors (just get the Baal Predator Tops etc) would anyone have problems with me playing as "counts as" or for all intents and purposes would it be better to make an 1850 mech list for Blood Angels and be done with it?

The predators would just require a Baal top
The dreads just magnetized arms

My biggest problem model wise would be using GH to represent Blood Angel Tac squads or Skyclaws as BA Assault Troops. Don't hold back on me on this one, if it would irritate you, I want to know.
Thanks.

[MagickalMemories]

If you're using generic SM models, and 'counts as' for both armies, I don't care.
I don't feel that any army MUST be painted in a specific color (Green Blood Angels? Okay!).

If you're using the Space Wolf models, though, it's going to irk me.
In a game at home, I'd allow it... but you'd catch CONSTANT harassment about it.
Running a tourney, I would not allow it.
Participating in a tourney, I'd make my displeasure known to the judges once (politley), and be done with it.

Regardless, you'd need to be prepared to answer, "What was that model supposed to represent, again?" a LOT.


Eric

[Brian Adair]

If I was running basic units do you think?

The predators would have the same loadout, just different colors as would the skyclaws and the dreads. I think I could pull it off with just magnetized bits so that only the color would be different. The only thing I can imagine different would be SW GH have the bolter and ccw whereas I dont think BA have the ccw.

However I respect the fact that color does have meaning in 40k.

[reegsk]

I'd agree with Eric on that one. Using generic marines as either a Blood Angels successor or a Space Wolves force would be fine (or even using said models to represent two different companies in the same DIY chapter). But using specialist chapter models to represent a different specialist chapter. . .that's a bit much to me. Especially if the models are painted as Space Wolves. As a tournament organizer, I would probably say no, because if they have space wolf parts and are painted as space wolves, everyone's going to assume they're Space Wolves. It just saves arguments down the road.

[porkuslime]

Kinda with MM and reegsk on this..

If your models have wolf tails, fangs, and wolfskull icons.. I am going to expect Space Wolves. Casual play with friends, I can cope.. but expect ribbing about Giant Vampire Wolves if you want to run them under BA codex.

Vanilla marines much less worry, but about the same level of teasing.. also.. are the models you have painted in the SW Gray scheme.. or a personal DIY color? If the color is "non-Codex SW" I would have less issues than I would if it was the "official" scheme.

-Porkuslime

[Brian Adair]

They do have red and black shoulderpads but no, they are painted in shadow grey.

[Ironhide]

Friendly games, where you point out what is what (and don't mind constant reminding), no problem.

[imp522]

Wouldn't bother me, I'd be happy you painted them.

[MagickalMemories]

If I was running basic units do you think?

The predators would have the same loadout, just different colors as would the skyclaws and the dreads. I think I could pull it off with just magnetized bits so that only the color would be different. The only thing I can imagine different would be SW GH have the bolter and ccw whereas I dont think BA have the ccw.

However I respect the fact that color does have meaning in 40k.

For *me*, it's not about the vehicles or the colors (even SW gray). Not at all.
For me, it's about the Infantry models.
If I'm looking at Space Wolf Termies and Wolf Guard, etc., with all those wolf pelts and SW bits hanging on them, and trying to think of them as Blood Angels... I'm going to be distracted from the game.

Eric

[EVIL INC]

I would not care. There is nothing wrong with having a chapter that is descended from the blood angels that uses grey paint and wolf iconography (tails, skulls ect). I would avoid using actual space wolf symbols but even if you used actual space wolf symbols, I would not care because at least it is painted up and not bare metal/plastic models. The color/symbols/accesseries on the model are just dressing. When it comes down to the rules and game play. A bolter is a bolter, power armor is power armor, power weapons are power weapons...
I like the idea of the baal top but if you go the route of stuff like death company, I would convert up a whole new set of models. Like for example, actual werewolf guys complete with wolf heads and tails that are actual tails.

[mrrshann618]

Back in the days of yor when I ran a White Scar army (even before the Chapter Approved rules for them) I frequently used Space Wolf models to represent that the White Scars were fairly "rustic" in their own way. I did however paint them more akin to White Scars and removed all the obvious Wolf iconography (Fur draped over armor could easily be seen as a White Scar style due to thier "Mongolian Horde" feel)

I have to agree. I really do not care if you do a count as long as I realy do not have to work at figuring out what you are doing. For example If you still had Wolf Specific parts that simply did not translate over to another army. (ohh all these <insert wolf specific Items> in this squad are meant to represent Y, while those same items in this squad are Z)

[govannon]

If you are using tactical marines as tactical marines and so on and have the correct weapons and options, I would be fine with it and you would be fine by the rules also. I can see some jokes about it, but not allowing it would be very uncool.

George

[starslayer]

In the basic space marine Codex it says you can use any "special character" with a different Chapter(and gaining special chapter rules)(p127). So you could use Magneus Calgar (Ultramarines) to represent your own Chapter's commander or Pedro Kantor, etc,etc.

I could see some confusion resulting from using Space Wolf models but Blood Angel rules though. Id be more accepting of using Salamander rules for your own Chapter of the "Fire Dragons", or Space Wolf rules for your own chapter of "War Lions" or somesuch.

[mrrshann618]

In most cases you cannot cross codex units. For example you could not take your version of Vulkan in a SW army, nor could you take any of the other chapters special characters in a "codex" army.

You want to have Pedro in a "codex" chapter, any codex chapter, be my guest. As soon as you move to a new codex, Sorry that rule just doesn't apply, though that model looks cool on your army

If you were playing SW figures, using SW iconography, then I'd have a problem with you continously proxying as a different chapter. Once or twice to see if you like those new rules better? no problem. But if you start to simply play them as X, then I wan't to see something. At least add in some changes to the markings to show that you are a divergent chapter

[Brian Adair]

I remember a Standard Bearer article that Jervis wrote awhile back (maybe a year) about his space marines army (complete with pictures) and how they had been bog standard space marines, space wolves, dark angels and about every other chapter under the sun. I think it is more about play style with me. I love the concept of Space Wolves but I am really drawn to an infantry list however, once in awhile it would be nice to play them as something else and not have to buy a bunch of new models simply because they are a different color or have different dead animals belted around their waist. I guess I would more agree if I was proxying SM for Orks or eldar for Nids, but isnt a guy with a bolter a guy with a bolter? Granted, I would most likely include some of the new models- namely DC, which would be black, but to me a Baal Predator painted grey is as much a Baal predator as one painted red, no matter what iconography is on it (its not like proxying a vindicator for a razorback). However, I do thank everyone for their opinions as it gives me something to ponder.