Ipods

[MEDEVL]

We have no proof that ANYTHING sold or traded here is not stolen. We assume that everything else has been legally obtained so I don't really see the need for special rules to cover digitally stored music. Yes piracy is a possibility but so is shoplifting for anything else on here and we seem to make no special allowance for that. I'm not trying to rock the boat, though it may seem that way. I just honestly don't understand how there is anything wrong with it in the context of the way we do things around here.

[MagickalMemories]

If you get a book from me, you're getting the physical item. I no longer have it in my possession. It's obvious that it's no longer in my possession, as you have it.
Same for an ipod. We know I don't have it, because YOU do.

The same can't be said for electronic downloads/song copies.


Eric

[MEDEVL]

But I don't have any proof that you didn't photocopy that book before you traded it to me. Or you could have scanned it in to your computer and made an electronic copy. I guess I'm just saying that once you buy something it's yours to do with what you please. It has always been that way. The electronic medium has cheged the nature of some goods and services but I don't think that should change the power that we the buyers have. As a purchaser I should have the same rights whether I buy my music on a cd or from ITunes. They are mine, I paid for them. If the entertainment industry wants to try and change that dynamic and strip the consumer of those rights then let's not help them do it here on Bartertown. I'm NOT advocating anything illegal but I don't think we should be catering to Sony and WB either. They are the ones that need to figure out how to fit their new delivery mechanism into the existing consumer realm, not us.

[MagickalMemories]

You know... I understand your point, but that's one of those "Hot Button" issues we're just not going to get into.

You're right that I might've made copies of that book, or even a CD before trading it to you. The thing is, though, when I trade the original to you, YOU are getting the legal, physical copy of the book, not the electronic copy. That leaves ME with the illegal copy, so you aren't in danger of violation (without consent) and laws. With an mp3 or pdf, you could potentially be in possession of an illegal copy.

Sure. That book could've been stolen. Then, you've got stolen property.
The thing is, though, if we keep playing that line of thought out to its' end, then NOTHING can be traded here because it's ALL potentially stolen. We have to draw a line someplace. That line is digital copies.

They are mine, I paid for them. If the entertainment industry wants to try and change that dynamic and strip the consumer of those rights then let's not help them do it here on Bartertown. I'm NOT advocating anything illegal but I don't think we should be catering to Sony and WB either. They are the ones that need to figure out how to fit their new delivery mechanism into the existing consumer realm, not us.

You're right that they're yours and, to a degree, you're free to do what you want with them... the operative phrase, there, being, "to a degree." While you ARE free to give them away, or even sell them, this is ONLY if you aren't keeping copies of your own. Once you have made and keep the copy for yourself, it's a violation of the law. It's always been that way, even before mp3's were in the picture.
Go to a professional photographer and have a family picture made. Buy the minimum package, because it's so expensive. Now, take some of those to Wal Mart's photo area and ask them to make copies for you. They won't. Take a book to Kinkos and ask them to make photocopies of every page. They won't.
Making those copies is against the law.
That' isn't a change. That's how it's been as far back as I can remember.

I know you aren't advocating anything illegal, or even insinuating that BTown should. I know you well enough to know you're above that. It just comes down to choosing your battles. There's no reason for BTown to get into that fight.

Eric

[Ironhide]

I would ask this then, what is the licensing areement on iTunes? I'm certain that when you buy songs from iTunes you digitally sign a terms of agreement clause.

[JohnHwangBT]

It's illegal. Violates copyright law. Is the guy trading the iPod going to pay the royalty fee, to every musician that he has on the iPod, when he sells it with the music on it?

No, it isn't "illegal", nor are any copyright laws being violated.

The only "violation" is the RIAAs insistence that they have a perpetual hold on your wallet for consuming any of their product.

It's the same as reselling CDs or DVDs or video games or books. Or miniatures. *All* of this stuff is Copyrighted. Ask GW or any IP lawyer if you don't believe me.

Royalties were paid as part of the initial sale, and there are no restrictions on subsequent sales, nor any royalties to be paid. Indeed, such restrictions on resale are not allowed.

Now, if you want to insist that all sale of gaming rulebooks and miniatures are now subject to secondary royalties (which, I believe to be in violation of US Commercial Code), I'd like to see more detailed justification for that, because that would shut down Btown entirely.

To be sure, there are possible IP violations, but they would be on the part of the seller, not the buyer:
- seller of CD / DVD / whatever retains a backup copy (physical or electronic, doesn't matter)

If I delete my itunes account, I can sell my ipod, and all of those tunes can be transferred to a third party completely legally. I paid for the royalties, and am transferring the IP licenses with the ipod to the buyer. The RIAA has no claim here, and the buyer is not obligated for any royalties whatsoever.

OTOH, if I sell the ipod loaded, but do not clear the device of media then I am at risk for violating, as I will have effectively created and distributed copies of media on a royalty-free basis. In this case, the buyer is still OK, but the RIAA can technically come after the seller.

As media / IP transfer is an issue, the buyer and seller should come to agreement here.

But I don't believe that media IP is any more special than any of the other IP that Btown traffics in on a daily basis.

And when you get right down to it, Btown is merely a matchmaker.

Like The Pirate Bay.

[J35T3R.us]

...Btown is... ...The Pirate Bay.

;p

New favorite quote.

[JohnHwangBT]

IMO pirated music/games/movies are a major reason why are economy is in the gutter.

Nope.

First off, Hollywood does fine when they have good product. Movies will do fine this year, as they've got X-Men and Harry Potter and so on.

PC Games are in the toilet primarily because of overly-restrictive Digital Restrictions Mechanisms being bundled in to block resale. If I can't resell a game to limit my cost, I won't buy unless the game is worth the full $50+. And very few games are worth full price. Most are only worth a rental.

Music is mostly crap, and people know it. People don't have to buy CDs that tie crap tracks to the one or two decent tracks that are worth paying for. The music companies got a free ride for decades with their album sales focus, but singles are finally coming back. For example, if you wanted to buy a Honda Civic, but I also forced you to buy 5 craptastic Dodges (at full price, mind you), would you do that, assuming that it was legal (be thankful that it isn't)?

No, I think the biggest reason the economy is in the gutter has very little to do with media, and a lot to do with poor housing credit validation along with real estate speculation.

[Crestion du Sable]

IMO pirated music/games/movies are a major reason why are economy is in the gutter.

Nope.

First off, Hollywood does fine when they have good product. Movies will do fine this year, as they've got X-Men and Harry Potter and so on.

Yup. Make something good adn they will come... make a movie of me farting on my snare drum, and it won't fill the seats!

PC Games are in the toilet primarily because of overly-restrictive Digital Restrictions Mechanisms being bundled in to block resale. If I can't resell a game to limit my cost, I won't buy unless the game is worth the full $50+. And very few games are worth full price. Most are only worth a rental.

Agreed fully. Dress a turd up with as much 'exclusive online content' as you want, and guess what... it's still a turd.

Music is mostly crap, and people know it. People don't have to buy CDs that tie crap tracks to the one or two decent tracks that are worth paying for. The music companies got a free ride for decades with their album sales focus, but singles are finally coming back. For example, if you wanted to buy a Honda Civic, but I also forced you to buy 5 craptastic Dodges (at full price, mind you), would you do that, assuming that it was legal (be thankful that it isn't)?

RIAA is sad in pants over this, but it is true. I have bought several hundred/thousand albums in my lifetime, and when it was LP's and cassettes, it was make a mix tape of the songs I liked, because 85% of the songs on the album were no good.

No, I think the biggest reason the economy is in the gutter has very little to do with media, and a lot to do with poor housing credit validation along with real estate speculation.

The biggest issue is trading debt as an investment opportunity. Note selling is about the most <not smart> thing I ever heard, and I play a game where people hit me with large heavy sticks The economy got screwed because of greed on the part of bankers and the investors behind said bankers. Then with the Adjustable Rate Mortgages where suddenly a guy's house payment went from 450 a month to 750 a month, instead of rolling it to the end of the mortgage, the guy got Mother F***ed out of his home. Now, it is partally his fault for living above his skis, but predatory lending practices is what enabled him to do so.

Napster/Grokster/Kazaa/Pirate Bay/RIAA target du jour has very little to do with the struggling of the mainstream econony. People are still gonna go to the theatre to see GOOD movies on the big screen. People are still gonna buy games that they enjoy, if the companies release a GOOD product. The major issue is that the quality of product released by the movie/music/game industries is that their business model is not up to contemporary standards. They face the same issue that Detroit faces, and at this point in time, they will either have to evolve or die.

Dave

[JohnHwangBT]

I don't really blame the lenders so much about the ARMs. I first blame Congress, for allowing subprime housing in the first place. "Subprime" means that they just don't qualify to buy a house in the first place. Then, I blame the buyers for thinking that money would magically appear out of nowhere. If they can't swing the payments for interest and principal, and can only afford "interest only", then they probably should be buying less house or renting.

I think that the economy is only getting worse with Obama & company jumping in. They're nationalizing auto companies that should have gone bankrupt and followed the laws for bankruptcy. They're nationalizing the banks. Socialized medicine is coming down the pike. Deficits are going to be at an all-time high. And now, they're wondering why China doesn't want to buy our T-bills?

But yeah, "piracy" is the reason why our economy is going down the toilet.

*Must* be piracy...

[porkuslime]

AND at this point I jump in and tell folks to keep discussions about Politics, Religion, Economics, etc.. and other Hot Button Topics to PM's ONLY..

Gaming related stuff here folks, not incindeary statements..

Keep on the main topic, please.