If you have seen/read the new BA dex

[reegsk]

Fill in on what in particular? If it's the OP's questions, here goes:

To field more than one unit of Death Company, you must take Astaroth the Grim as an HQ. He's a Chaplain, so if he's attached to a unit of Death Company, they re-roll failed To Hit and To Wound on the charge.

-- Lemartes is AMAZING. WS5 I6, and if he takes a wound, he goes up to S5 with 5 attacks and keeps Furious Charge. He also counts as a Chaplain, so his unit of DC get to re-roll everything on the charge. You cannot remove the jump pack, though. He's best in a DC unit with packs or in a Stormraven.

-- I'm assuming TH is Thunderhammer? If so, not really. Take a fist for five points less. They can take Inferno Pistols, which are melta but 6" range, so 3" range for the bonus die. Sanguinary Priests do nothing for DC, as they already have Furious Charge and Feel No Pain.

-- I would recommend putting the DC Dread in a 'Raven if you're fielding one. Provided it doesn't get popped turn one, it can get him across the board just as quickly as the Drop Pod could. And if you drop him off in the enemy's lines right away, well, he's going to be the biggest threat immediately and get popped before he can do anything.

So the list you want to do would look something like this:

Astaroth the Grim -- 250pts
2 x Death Company Dreads -- 250pts (125 each) -- swapping the Storm Bolter for a Heavy Flamer is another 10 points each
2 x Stormravens -- 430pts (215 each -- I added in the Extra Armor for 15 points) -- The only upgrade really worth considering is Hurricane Bolter sponsons for 30pts

So that's 930 pts, which would leave 920 to bring the list to 1850. I'd recommend putting Lemartes in one unit of DC, and attach Astaroth to the other, leaving 770 points (920 - 150 for Lemartes) to flesh out the two DC units. If you want to max out the 'Raven's transport capacity, it would be 400 points to place ten in each, as Lemartes and Astaroth occupy two spots in the Stormraven (models with Jump Packs can go in a Stormraven, but count as two models like Termies). I know what you're thinking -- wow, 370 points on wargear? Consider this -- giving each DC model a power weapon would cost you 300 points, leaving another 70 for Infernus Pistols, Hand Flamers, or turning some of those Power Weapons into Fists and Thunder Hammers. Expensive units. . .but they'll kill anything they assault. . .and then get shot to Hell and back!

[Ironhide]

Let me make sure here, DC count as troops, but cannot hold objectives; however the DC Dreads can. Correct? If so, you got nothing to capture objectives with. Hmmm....not looking good to me as 2/3 of mission are objective-based

[locust]

@ Ironhide:
Death Co. Dreads cannot hold objectives due to them being a "vehicle". Nothing with an armor value can hold objectives. So if you make the all DC army with DC dreads you can hold 0 objectives. You can still win by tabling your opponent though, regardless of mission type.

[Ironhide]

Well, my SW will still eat this for breakfast.

[EZ mac]

Well, my SW will still eat this for breakfast.

Do u mean the weaker assault build u can do out of the C:BA book?

Missile spam from C:SW eats it, thunder pants eat them and razorbacks eat them (all dco= little ranged anti tank).

The more balanced lists are muuuuch better then the Dco list

and WTF is up with Dco tyco?! He suuuux! Not an independent character?

[Ironhide]

Dco just bites it in my opinion. Can't hold objectives and is mad expensive.

[EZ mac]

That's what I mean... They cost the same (with j pack) As last ed but lost rending... Huh? Now how are they better? I felt they should have been the 35 from just buying one or like 20 when u buy a squad (u got one for 'free')

This codex is going to suck for alot of people because either they will try to do Dco madness (and nothing else) or they will try taking too much of the expensive guys. Or the actually deepstrike the LR's.

[reegsk]

Here's why DCo don't suck as a unit. . .

Khorne Berserker
WS5 2 Attacks, Furious Charge, Fearless, 21 points each

Death Company
WS5, 2 Attacks, Furious Charge, Fearless, Feel No Pain, Relentless, 20 points each, ANY of them can take power weapons/fists/thunder hammers, as well as one plasma pistol or inferno pistol for every five models in the squad

People always talk about how wreck and insane Khorne Berzerkers are, and they really are. Perhaps the most solid troops choice in the game. However, Death Company can go toe-to-toe with berzerkers and actually win. The only two weaknesses are Rage (where they have to charge towards the nearest enemy) and the fact that they can't take objectives.

[EZ mac]

Here's why DCo don't suck as a unit. . .

Khorne Berserker
WS5 2 Attacks, Furious Charge, Fearless, 21 points each

Death Company
WS5, 2 Attacks, Furious Charge, Fearless, Feel No Pain, Relentless, 20 points each, ANY of them can take power weapons/fists/thunder hammers, as well as one plasma pistol or inferno pistol for every five models in the squad

People always talk about how wreck and insane Khorne Berzerkers are, and they really are.  Perhaps the most solid troops choice in the game.  However, Death Company can go toe-to-toe with berzerkers and actually win.  The only two weaknesses are Rage (where they have to charge towards the nearest enemy) and the fact that they can't take objectives.

personally I really don't get why anyone would say that khorne zerkers (KB) are ever considered the 'most solid troop choice in the game', well except for Bols... Because they are the end all with tactics (I mean footdar are good right????). The C: CSM codex really isn't a good thing to compare something you want to say is good because the CSM dex really ain't that hot.  Now try to compare DC or KB to something decent like GHunters in a rhino or the assault squad out of C:BA (see below)  

  KB, like Dco, have to be in your face against something not in a transport and while they have the option to take 2 melta pistols at 10 dudes that is 230 points and with jpacks it's 380 points, then u will want a fist or 2 so add in another 50 points so 280 or 430 points... Nice... 
It has 6 fist attacks on the charge which is good or 405 for 3 on the charge not so hot...

Let's see what u can take in assault squads for the same points....
1x 10 man assault squad= 190 + 20 (2x meltas) + 15 (power wep) + 5 melta bomb + 15 (melta pistols) = 245points
1x sang priest (50) + 15 (melta pistol) + 15 (power wep) + 5 (melta bomb) + 25 (jpack) = 110

Both = 355points

So you can take the assault squad which has 1 less attack ea (except the leader), and 1 less wepon skill but has furious charge and fnp also just like the dc. Also the assault/ sang preist on the charge has 4x ws 5 and 4x wep skill 4 power wep attacks and it comes with 2x melta guns, 2x melta pistols and it has 2x melta bombs. 
Oh and your saving 75 points... And your taking a scoring unit.

With the rest of those 75 ish points that's really close to a typhoon.

[reegsk]

The main weakness of the assault squad are the fewer attacks, and the fact that you can take away their FNP in the first round of combat. And, unless you roll a "1" for the squad at the beginning of the game, they're not Fearless. Fearless and FNP is the 40k equivalent of fantasy's Unbreakable.

But to keep the point comparisons fair, you have to give the squads the same loadout. We'll ignore the meltaguns and bombs for this comparison, since DC can't take them, and it looks like this:

10 x Assault Marines w/Powerfist/melta pistol sarge, and power weapon/meltapistol/jump pack priest = 335pts
11 x Death Company w/Powerfist, power weapon, 2 x melta pistols and jump packs = 445pts

So the Death Company are 110 points more expensive. But compare their effectiveness. . .

Assault Squad -- 3 WS4 power fist attacks, 27 x WS4 chainsword attacks, 4 WS5 power weapon attacks
Death Company -- 3 x WS5 power fist attacks, 36 x WS5 chainsword attacks, 4 x WS5 power weapon attacks

Against a WS4 enemy (so Orks, Marines, Chaos Marines, plenty of Nids, Necrons, etc., etc.), they're going to score about the same number of power fist hits, one more power weapon hit, and about ten more chainsword hits, all wounding on the same score. And your opponent can't take away their FNP with a single power weapon attack directed at an IC in the unit.

They may not be a scoring unit, but death company are higher WS, Fearless, have eternal FNP and have more attacks than assault marines. Attach a Reclusiarch or Chaplain to either squad, and the DC shine through even more, re-rolling failed rolls to Hit and to Wound. In the example above with a chaplain attached, you're talking the assault squad getting 2 power fist kills, three power weapon kills and 14 wounds. The Death Company have 3 power fist kills, 4 power weapon wounds and 28 regular wounds.

If you run a mech list, death company become a lot more affordable and blow assault squads out of the water. The above assault squad, scaled back to nine models to fit in a rhino, would cost 332 points. The death company, scaled back to ten and in a rhino, would be 320 points. . .12 points cheaper.

Honestly, comparing Death Company to Assault Marines isn't a fair matchup. Death Company are a Troops choice, but they don't function as one. Compare them to Vanguard Vets. DCo are higher WS with Fearless, FNP and Furious charge, for the same points cost. Sure, Vanguard Vets can take jump packs for five points cheaper, but all of the weapon options are the same cost. You can take DCo rather than vanguard vets, have them fulfill the same exact role (without Heroic Intervention), and still take three Baal Preds as Fast Attack choices.

The only downside of Death Company is that they're subjected to Rage, so a savvy opponent can lure them away with a cheap, tossaway unit, or something that can just outrun them. The best way to get around that? Either give them jump packs and deep strike, or put them in a transport until they reach the enemy. Either way you slice it, pound for pound, Death Company are one of the best units in the game.

[EZ mac]

Are u really saying that u cannot count having 4x melta shots with a assault squad because the DC can't take melts guns? Wow.... I'm perty sure that special weps are a reason they are better

Build the squad to were it is good against the best dco you can before making comparisons.

and before adding in a chap to the squad you can also think about adding in a librarian to the assault squad for practically the same cost with a chap.

Death co= too many points. You can get about the same use out of a assault squad with characters as you can, keep the unit scoring, and get more melta.


And again did you just compare a 'good' unit (dco) to orks? Lol..

[Ironhide]

445 points??? Jeez, I can almost get 3 GH packs for that, or two kitted out GH packs with TLAC Razorbacks.

[EZ mac]

445 points??? Jeez, I can almost get 3 GH packs for that, or two kitted out GH packs with TLAC Razorbacks.

Uh huh that's why the arnt worth taking.

And if someone really wanted to they could take 3x 30man unit with th hammers, jump packs and 6 melta pistols each for over 2500 points a squad so over 7500 in death co.

[reegsk]

For starters, I never compared DCo to Orks. . .not sure where you got that. And again, as I stated more than once, comparing DCo to other Troops choices isn't a fair comparison for two reasons -- one, Death Company are better in a fight, and two, for their points cost and options, they're more like an Elites or Fast Attack choice than a Troops choice. From the argument you're making, cheaper is better, I would expect to see an army of all Tactical or Assault Squads in your army, with no Termiantors, Sternguard Vets, Vanguard Vets or any high-cost unit. The reason I took the meltaguns out of the assault squad for comparison purposes was to even out the direct comparison between an assault squad and a death company trooper.

I think the major issue here is your view of the Death Company's tactical role. They're not supposed to be a unit that can serve multiple tactical roles. They are designed to do one thing -- assault an enemy infantry unit and kill its face off. Is limited tactical ability a weakness? Yes, absolutely. But there is no single unit in the Blood Angels army that is better than Death Company at combating enemy infantry. The only one that comes close would be a unit of Terminators, and their role is even more limited than Death Company. Honestly, the lack of meltaguns in a DCo squad isn't a bad thing in my opinion. Their job isn't to open up enemy vehicles. Their job is to kill whatever comes out of enemy vehicles. I have plenty of other things in my army that can pop enemy tanks (including assault marines with meltas), but once those transports are popped, aint nothin' better than some death company to kill whatever was inside of them.

True, Death Company can get ridiculously expensive, but anyone who would give them that much gear is a bit foolish. They're best used in squads around ten to fifteen, loaded in a Rhino, Stormraven or LRC, with either a Chaplain, Reclusiarch or Lemartes to lead them. Sprinkle in a power fist and maybe a few power weapons. And what you'll get is a unit that can go toe-to-toe with any close combat unit in the game. Charge ten assault marines into a 30-strong ork mob and see what happens. Then charge in ten Death Company to another 30-strong ork mob. Guaranteed the Death Company will do better. That's why they cost more. Because they're ridiculous. But they are defnitely worth it.

[EZ mac]

Ok Boss so you want take the dco as 10 man + lemartes with j packs? so 350 + 150 + 25 (fist) + 30 (2? power wepons) = 550points

say lemartes got hurt mathhammer says you will do (against a regular marine squad) you will do:
7.37 (reg attacks)
6.05 (lemartes)
6.32 (power weps)
2.59 (fist)
1.11 (bolt pistols from dc)
.14 (bolt pistol from lemartes)

so you do 23.58 wounds on the charge vrs regular marines.... good yes?

ok so now lets look at the assault squad that i had on the charge:
1.7 (sang preist)
1.33 (power wep guy)
2.77 (reg attacks)
.77 (bolt pistols)
2.22 (meltas)

so 8.79 wounds vrs reg marines

now this looks great right? yes 23.58>8.79 but compare the points 550 to 355.... so almost 200 points less and you still nerly completely kill off a full 10 man unit of marines.

now lets look at a 'good' cheap assault unit which is my favorite... the honor guard.
honor guard (115) + 50 (jpacks) + 60 (power swords) + 50 (5 meltas) +20 (blood champ) +30 (chapter banner)= 325 (wow alot a points!)
chaplain or librarian with perferd enemy (100) + 25 (jump pack)= 125

total for both is 450
vrs the same tact squad:
2.77 (melta)
.11 (leader bolt pistol)
10.00 (power weps from reg dudes)
5.92 (pow weps from wep skill 5 guys)

so 18.8 wounds on the charge for 450, perty expensive yes but still 100 points cheaper

want to know the chances of killing a land raidermine has?.15 shaken, .40 stunned, wep destroyed, immobile, wrecked, and .63 explodes (those are the numb er of results to expect)

want to know the chances of your dco with 2 melta pistols to get to the cream filling inside?

.06 shaken, .16 st, wd, im, wreck, .25 explodes



yes your squad will kill more vrs reg marines but at the points it comes out to 23.32 points per wound. my honor guard is 23.93 points per wound so .61 point to wound more... yes more then yours but my squad has a lot more options which they can do, a librarian (the one id take) so all of that good stuff, and a grail hidden in the honor guard