Trade problem... a deal is a deal? What do you think?

[MagickalMemories]

@ GW...
A lot can be said for your character, simply based on the post above.

I won't disrespect your decision.

Good for you for being willing to be the bigger man. I'm not sure I could have, in your shoes.

(Edit)

@ Sid...

I still have nothin' but love for you, my friend (no vieled insult LOL). You are one of the people I respect most here... top 10 without a thought... We usually see FAIRLY CLOSE to eye-to-eye, but I have to disagree with you on the acceptability of this guys backing out and whether or not it is deserving of a neg. ref (or would be, if the other trader hadn't stepped up a little).
I have to say that the "official" Bartertown stand echoes my own:

A Bartertown 'Trade' occurs when both parties have agreed to a transaction, be it a purchase (ie buyer-seller) or exhange of items and/or services, and have agreed to the terms of said transaction.
For example. Morlock and I agree to trade his Warmachine Cryx for my Warhammer Fantasy Chaos. We negotiate what we're trading specifically, we negotiate shipping terms, and we negotiate a time-frame for said shipping. Once we agree - and this can be as simple as "you're cool with that?" or as complex as sending a separate email that states the exact terms of everything agreed to along with a request to reply-with-agreement - the Trade is on.
If something unexpected happens, like a family emergency or unexpected deployment, it is the responsibility of the person in question to let the other party know what's happened within a reasonable time frame.

viewtopic.php?t=45472&sid=4c24e0b0b0b53 ... d63419c511

The above quoted "rule" didn't used to be so exacting, but repeated occurances similar to what this thread entails prompted Lin to alter the text on it.

Eric

[Rith Shadowbane]

First off, I'd like to say Hi, I'm Trader B as I have been so dubed, although I'd prefer it if you used my real name as I don't have anything to hide.

As for has this happened before? Yes, this has happened to me before except that I was on the other end. Simply enough, I paid for him to return the items to me and we were done.

As for will I do it again, odds are against it. This is my second 3-way trade, and my first one was benifical enough that I wanted to do this one when I saw the chance, but I screwed things up on my part. I didn't keep close enough contact to the local guy about the items I was getting for GreatWolf, and I failed to notice the condition stated as 'used' (nothing more, I don't have any record of them being painted that I've seen) at the bottom of the very first PM for this trade.

As of right now, any items that I promised GreatWolf in the original deal have been found or replaced and are currently on thier way to him.

Again, we arrive at "What constitutes a deal?" When do we know when a deal has been finalized? Ask 10 people and get 10 different answers.

I whole heartedly believe that. For me, I either have quick trades, much like knife jabs where an offer is made and a deal is struck in three PMs or less, while others are a gentle sword-play back and forth, not ending until I say 'Deal, ship' or 'it's not going to work out'. Either way, I don't consider something a done deal until one of the two comes up.

In this case, I also think it DOES matter that Trader B backed out of the trade after the agreed upon shipping date and communicated this to Greatwolf but then summarily opened the package and then said he "wasn;t satisfied.

Wasn't satisfied with WHAT? He wanted to cancel the trade, items sight unseen, but then went ahead anyway and rifled thru the box? WTH is that? He had no reason to open the box, just rewrite the address and return it.

First off, I never said 'Deal', which is one of the things that I require in a trade. I don't consider just exchanging addresses and saying you won't be able to ship until next week a solid deal as I see that as information that can affect the deal (such as I'm sending an entire metal army to Alaska or something and/or one of us is waiting for a paycheck).

I wanted to cancel the trade because the rest of it fell through between me and who I was getting the items for, and suddenly I was going to be stuck with stuff for a game I don't play. I looked at the game, and still being alouf to them not being new, I figured I could continue the trade anyway and just re-sell what I was getting or learn to play it for myself.

As for why I opened the box, it's pretty simple. I'm not good with remembering names/address beyond transfering them from a PM to a box. That day I had two boxes, so with a shrug, I opened both to see what I had been sent. At that point I was intending to keep what I thought was new stuff, only to be surprised with with a condition I wasn't satisfied with. At this point I again desided I didn't want them or have a use for them, so I offered to return the box and pay for his shipping or asked that the trade be lessened somewhat as I didn't see what I offered (for what I assumed was new) being equal to what I recived, which lead to me being unsatisfied with what I got, GreatWolf wanting his stuff, and this thread to be posted.


As I already said above, GreatWolf was kind enough to work it out with me, and something very near what was originally desided upon is already on it's way to him. The stuff I recived is just destined to sit in my basement now, right next to all the other games I haven't ever played, but that's fine with me. My total loss was $20 to replace things I thought I had for GreatWolf but didn't, a pile of stuff I wasn't planning on using for a while, and the storage space that I just cleaned my untouched first edition Epic out of, but I think (or maybe I should say hope) that GreatWolf's happy with what's come out of this.


For everyone, if this black-lists me or puts down a BTR in your books because of this, so be it. We all have a list, however large or small, that we won't trade with for whatever reasons we can think up. Most of the above have already dealt or at least talked to me before, and through your posts above have shown me that I need to watch what other people are thinking in a trade too, as so that I don't find myself staring at a box of painted stuff when I thought I was getting on-sprue like requested the 3rd trader of this 3-way.

I for one can say that I'm not trying any more three way trades, and I'm sticking with the systems I have now.

Any other questions, comments, or concerns can be PMed to me or posted here and I'll try to answer them.

~ Rith

[ancientsociety]

First off, I never said 'Deal', which is one of the things that I require in a trade. I don't consider just exchanging addresses and saying you won't be able to ship until next week a solid deal as I see that as information that can affect the deal (such as I'm sending an entire metal army to Alaska or something and/or one of us is waiting for a paycheck).

If, in your view, you ONLY have an actual trade by exchanging the word "deal" with another trader, why isn't that written in your sig or any of your trade ads?

When you choose your trade items and terms, exchange addys with another trader, and then say "I will ship on...", I think 95% of the BT members would consider that a deal.

Creative acts of omission (i.e. "I didn't use X term") don't serve any purpose, except perhaps to give you an out if you don't follow through.

To avoid confusion in the future, I'd suggest stating your terms plainly in your sig.

[GreatWolf]

UPDATE:

The trader has admirably followed through and sent me his end of the deal. He even went as far as to buy a BRAND NEW TAU EMPIRE codex to send me! (because the one we had traded for couldnt be found) I recieved the package today and am very pleased. I harbor no hard feelings, and knowing that this was a simple mistake (we ALL make mistakes) and not something typical of this trader, I would happily trade with him again.

AND, I would ask that anyone who may know him, please not hold this against him either. Again, we ALL (yes even you) make mistakes. It's what we do after we make them that makes us the men we are.

Thank you all for your input, I am hoping this thread will cause us all to be more careful when making trades, and hopefully help to make bartertown a safer place to do buisness.

[mrsuitcasegames]

Just a quick reply to state my opinion in the matter... only read first page, sorry...

I personally believe that a deals not done untile the models are shipped for one side (obviously) but I have on one occasion asked to return a Tau broadside I bought. The conversion the person did was less admirable than advertised, but as it was in my hands that made it my responsibility to buy it (and of course thats pretty much a gray area). That doesn't stop me from asking for a return. If the person was to refuse to take my item back (at my shipping expense) it is in my code of honor to pay up for the deal in question. However, this may not be the case in my trading partners POV, but I account for that with my personal method. This hardly needs to be said, but in other words, whats fair for one is unfari to another.

However, for what good can be done with my opinion, I think most people will agree with great wolf. Courtesy and honestly is a trend here at bartertown, and personally I think that its crossing the line to refuse a deal after you get it. But if he ships it back, and its all there, the money aspect is the same, Then what was he really getting out of this? He has nothing to gain from wasteing money on shipping and valuable time. So I say everyone makes mistakes.

BTW, I wouldn't ship anything first If the other end is a cash only deal. I don't care how much feedback you have, you have security with PayPal (i think). My models arent quite so insured, even with insurance.

I may disappear for a while, I go through message board irritation streaks. (i.e. I don't like posting). And thsi post was obviously not 'short'. Sorry.