One last question: "Counts as" or New Army

[JohnHwangBT]

The iconography and symbols are purely secondary.

That is where you and I disagree. For *Canon* armies, the iconograpy and heraldry are just as significant as the weaponry from a WYSIWYG perspective.

From a TMIR perspective, if the rules aren't that important, then "dance with the one what brung ya", and play as what you painted as.

What you seem to willfully fail to recognize is that nobody is requiring people to have or use BA bitz to play under BA rules. We simply have an aversion to people fielding their SW armies as BA. *THAT* is what you need to understand.

[Ironhide]

The iconography and symbols are purely secondary.

That is where you and I disagree. For *Canon* armies, the iconograpy and heraldry are just as significant as the weaponry from a WYSIWYG perspective.

From a TMIR perspective, if the rules aren't that important, then "dance with the one what brung ya", and play as what you painted as.

That is purely your opinion John.

You say your "grey" SM can be substituted for any other SM army, yet wish to deny that privilege towards other players? Just because they painted them in "canon" colors? WYSIWYG only pertains to how your models are armed and equipped. Not how they are painted.

[EVIL INC]

It is just astounding that people will actually try to justify the fact that they would rather their opponent use doller store army men and half full coke cans as a blood angel army then someone using space wolf models. That they would rather their opponent use marines painted as and converted to be dallas cowboy football players including death company cheerleaders with power pom poms then use space wolf models as blood angels.
Ironhide is right wysiwyg does refer to items and wargear not the color paint. I see a lot of people standing their ground on this attitude towards players who do not have as deep pockets as themselves in order to gain in-game advantages but none of them facing the fact that not only does common sense tell them they are wrong, but the "cannon company" that makes the game tells them they are wrong. Once more, I refer you to the rulebook, top of page two. "The Most Important Rule".

[JohnHwangBT]

The iconography and symbols are purely secondary.

That is where you and I disagree. For *Canon* armies, the iconograpy and heraldry are just as significant as the weaponry from a WYSIWYG perspective.

That is purely your opinion John.

You say your "grey" SM can be substituted for any other SM army, yet wish to deny that privilege towards other players? Just because they painted them in "canon" colors?

WYSIWYG only pertains to how your models are armed and equipped. Not how they are painted.

That is factually untrue, and you know it. Others are saying pretty much the same thing, and it's been printed in tournament rules. If I were the lone voice of reason, then where is this other stuff coming from?

Darn straight, I would take *every* opportunity to deny any such flexibility others who have *deliberately* chosen to paint their armies in particular, specific Canonical schemes which strongly imply particular rules. If I see what is obviously a Blood Angel, I'd expect it to conform to official Blood Angel rules (e.g. testing for Red Thirst), in the same way that I'd expect what is obviously a Plasmagun to conform to official Plasma rules (i.e. R24" S7 AP2 Rapid Fire Gets Hot!). Grey marines don't have any such rules expectation, in the same way that a particular full-scratch, non-Canon Heavy weapon would require explanation whether it represents a Lascannon, Plasmacannon, or Multimelta.

Perhaps that is "purely" *your* opinion. :eyeroll:

[JohnHwangBT]

Ironhide is right wysiwyg does refer to items and wargear not the color paint.

Once more, I refer you to the rulebook, top of page two. "The Most Important Rule".

No, he isn't right, because it's purely an opinion. It's not some kind of immutable law that is graven in stone, obvious for all the world. If it were, there wouldn't be any disagreement. And following your reasoning to its illogical conclusion, it would be perfectly acceptable to field IG infantry as SM infantry, and vice versa - they have the correct weapons, and are of the correct basic type (Infantry), so all good!

TMIR doesn't say that you should attempt to confuse your opponent by fielding models that look like they should have one set of rules but actually follow another set of rules. How is that "fun and enjoyable" for the opponent?

And with that, I'm outta here.

[Ironhide]

Tournaments. Not the rulebook. Quote me something from the rulebook that says you can't. Tournament rules are the equivalent of house rules for that specific setting.

[EVIL INC]

1. That is factually untrue, and you know it. Others are saying pretty much the same thing, and it's been printed in tournament rules. If I were the lone voice of reason, then where is this other stuff coming from?

2. Darn straight, I would take *every* opportunity to deny any such flexibility others who have *deliberately* chosen to paint their armies in particular, specific Canonical schemes which strongly imply particular rules. If I see what is obviously a Blood Angel, I'd expect it to conform to official Blood Angel rules (e.g. testing for Red Thirst), in the same way that I'd expect what is obviously a Plasmagun to conform to official Plasma rules (i.e. R24" S7 AP2 Rapid Fire Gets Hot!). Grey marines don't have any such rules expectation, in the same way that a particular full-scratch, non-Canon Heavy weapon would require explanation whether it represents a Lascannon, Plasmacannon, or Multimelta.

Perhaps that is "purely" *your* opinion. :eyeroll:

Ok, going to pick this apart piecemeal. Placing numbers in quoted post for reference.
1. So your say that it is the color paint on a model that gives it special rules? Well, heck, all this time I thought it was the codex rules that did that. Seriously, the color paint means nothing. You are just being silly to be honest. You are fine with cowboys blood angels or hello kitty blood angels and even plastic armymen or blood angels made out of legos but because your opponent's toy soldiers are painted grey and have wolf tails on them, your going to "take your ball and go home"? All I can say is that I am SURE I am not the only one laughing at you.I have provided proof to support my position (even gave the exact page number and title of rule). I am waiting for you to provide yours. There may actually be idiots working for GW who will tell you that you cant do it but if they do, they are going against the big rulebook itself in order to make rich kids who spend loads of money happy because they can be the elite lords over the poor masses in order to encourage them to spend more money at the events. But as I said, that whole concept goes against the rules of the game itself as they are printed in black and white.
2. I will fix your statment for you. "Dern straight. because I am personally wealthy, I will buy and model an entire new army for each chapter and use this as a basis to gain as many unfair advantages over my opponents who are not able to buy as many models as I can. Then I will hide this by saying well, I model them all seperately so you have to as well".

Anyway, back to the original question, yes, you are perfectly able to do as you are wanting to do. The rulebook itself supports you and encourages it. Have fun but expect to catch crap from the "bluebloods".

Edit: Gotta laugh, prove the guy wrong and just as if I was using grey blood angels, he takes his ball and goes home with a parting insult. lol

[Brian Adair]

John, I would have to respectfully disagree- saying that if you take generic marines and paint them any color you like allows you to play them as any specific chapter is as deceptive as playing a Cannon chapter as a different chapter (As long as wysiwyg holds true). If you are using grey marines as SW, I could easily ask, where are the wolf pelts, the iconography and the specific weapon loadouts of the SW chapter- after all, a SW wolf claw looks like a lightning claw but it has iconography on it, so a lightning claw can never "count as" a wolf claw. Same thing with a TH,- space wolf thunderhammers have wolf icons on them (so do their bolters) so a generic chapter painted grey wouldn't have these marking and thus not the stats associated with them. However, I respect your opinion to disagree, like I said I was just trying to gauge the communities response. Odds are, I will never use the SW models to represent Blood Angels but I was toying with the idea- although, I do really like the idea of a divergent chapter with werewolves instead of vampires.

[govannon]

Ironhide is right wysiwyg does refer to items and wargear not the color paint.

Once more, I refer you to the rulebook, top of page two. "The Most Important Rule".

No, he isn't right, because it's purely an opinion. It's not some kind of immutable law that is graven in stone, obvious for all the world. If it were, there wouldn't be any disagreement. And following your reasoning to its illogical conclusion, it would be perfectly acceptable to field IG infantry as SM infantry, and vice versa - they have the correct weapons, and are of the correct basic type (Infantry), so all good!

TMIR doesn't say that you should attempt to confuse your opponent by fielding models that look like they should have one set of rules but actually follow another set of rules. How is that "fun and enjoyable" for the opponent?

And with that, I'm outta here.

John, we are all talking about marine miniatures! IG don't have power armor, so that is why you can't use them as marines. The op is talking about using models that have the same armor, weapons and equipment. If an opponent can't understand when told before the game that the BA codex is being used for these grey marines with wolf tails and that everything is equiped correct, maybe they should not be playing a game as complicated as 40k.
So, if somebody has a marine army with DA symbols and have them painted dark green, then they can't be used as BA.
But if they have marines with DA symbols and painted light green, then they can be used as BA.
Could someone please post a link or page number to were all these rules come from.

[MagickalMemories]

First off, everyone needs to be more careful.
I see WAY TOO MUCH "putting words in peoples mouths" here. That's not cool.

The bottom line about it is that everyone has an opinion, and they're entitled to it.
Opinions are NOT facts and, as such, cannot be wrong. Disagreed with? Yes. Not wrong, though.

What chapter are these emblems for?
1)


2)


3)


4)
http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/warha ... _Badge.png

If you DIDN'T respond 1) Soace Wolves, 2) Raptors, 3) Dark Angels, 4) Blood Angels, then you don't know iconography very well, or you're outright lying.

If you "get around" as a gamer, and are used to playing a LOT of different armies, You're going to look on the table, see Space Wolf models and presume it's Puppies. When you realize it isn't... it's too late. Your mind is going to keep with that association.

It's not that they CAN'T do it. It's just that it's an annoyance for their opponent.

Eric

[JohnHwangBT]

First off, everyone needs to be more careful.
I see WAY TOO MUCH "putting words in peoples mouths" here. That's not cool.
Eric

It's way more than merely "not cool" - it's out-and-out flame-baiting. Now, I've tried pretty hard to let a certain amount of nonsense slide. I even planned to drop the thread to let things defuse, but that didnt' happen. Instead, certain folks took that as license to take pot shots. And apparently, this behavior wasn't moderated despite at least 2 admins partcipating in thread.

So if, when I log in tomorrow, that BS is still up, I'm going to take it as a sign that admin isn't going to address the behavior displayed and that full-on flaming is acceptable. At that point, I'm going to light up this thread like you haven't seen in quite a while, because lord knows I've got a lot of stored up spleen to vent.

[EVIL INC]

Yes, I see a lot of this flame baiting but was afraid to say anything about it. Thank you for stepping in MM.
The fact is, the rulebook itself says that you can do it (and encourages it) that is THE bottom line. Rule title and page number has been provided.
End of Story.

[starslayer]

The fact of the matter is if you go to your local game shop and want to use Space Wolves as Blood Angels in a pick-up game you might get an opponent that either :
a) Not agree
b) Agree, but be in a very foul mood

Its too much work to decipher what is what. Are those guys Death company? The figs have a specific model & paint scheme to be recognizable.

If its your friend, you inform him you want to test the rules- Im sure you'll get a better reception.

If someone doesnt agree- what will you do? Show him the rulebook? Ive yet to see any written rule posted here saying you can do this. Even if there was one- you cant force him to agree & play. Are you gonna call Gav to come beat him up?

The "bottom line", & "end of story" comments could be considered flames.

[EVIL INC]

If someone tells me that they are going to meet me at the local shop and would like to play me a game with their blood angel army and show up with a blood angel successor chapter that uses werewolves as their icon rather then vampires, I will know I am playing against blood angels rules without any confusion at all much less hard feelings. This is because my opponent told me they are using blood angels. I would have to be a complete idiot to forget halfway through the game.
Starslayer, you forgot to add "C. very easily find a game with compliments on originality". I say that because that is what I would see at any game store I have ever played at (and trust me, over the course of 25 years, I have played at a fair few).
End of story is not a flame, it is a fact. When ever you run into rules issues, you can go to the rulebook so the rulebook has the last say or "ends the story". In this case it does twofold because if you go by the rules, you need only follow wysiwyg in terms of items of wargear and equipment (whatever color it is painted or how it is decorated) and because the rulebook says that if there is an issue, you as the players are free to customize them to suit both parties. if one says "no, I wont play you because your blood angels are painted grey, that is the person who is losing out because they will be seen as the "jerk" and thereafter avoided for games while the player with the "grey blood angels" will be able to immediately find a game and more games after that because they will be seen as original and fun to play against.
From the very inception of Games Workshop as a company, they have encouraged originality, inventiveness and customization. For your benefit, I will provide rules and page numbers.
1. The most important rule. you can stop reading here because this one says it all. Page 2 of the rulebook. Top of page.
2. Codexes. Note this does not say that you HAVE to use a particuler chapter's models to represent the chapter (we will assume wysiwyg). Page vii
3. Reading through the rest of the rules, I dont see any of them that say the rules are applied different according to what color paint you use (except of course for orks painting their vehicles red lol).

[mrrshann618]

1. So your say that it is the color paint on a model that gives it special rules? Well, heck, all this time I thought it was the codex rules that did that. Seriously, the color paint means nothing.

Actually I want to point out that sometimes paint color DOES in fact dictate special rules.
Orks for example you MUST have red on the vehicle somewhere if you wish to use their special rule.
Beyond this, Color is often used to identify they army. Nowhere does it state that you have to make your armies one way, but it is an unwritten rule when it comes to games. Common courtesy states that if you are going to make the 3rd company of SW, you play 3rd company of SW.

As MM pointed out when the Iconography shows one thing it gets very frustrating and annoying to be constantly seeing Wolf models on the board and having to think of them as anything else. To people who have been playing along time I'm sure they can roll with the punches, but it may be distracting in the long run. For new players who are themselves trying to learn the rules you are introducing information that will definately screw them up later.
As many have already stated if you want to try something no problem 99.9% of the time you are going to be able to play your army under different rules. People proxy all the time, it just gets rather annoying to have to constantly ask for clarification becuase you have to wrap your mind around the fact that those are not space wolves with frost blades, they are blood angels with something else. Both armies have different base rules associated with them and your mind will generally pick up on those icons and associate them with those rules.
In a friendly game, no problem you only have to deal with an annoyance factor. At that point that entirely depends on the person and their level of tolerance to being annoyed.

If someone wants to be able to switch armies, DON'T put chapter specific icons (such as the ones MM showed) and make your own chapter. Start with generic SM's use whatever bits you want, You want pompoms Fine, No problem I'm not having to constantly make myself think they are NOT SW due to them being covered in SW icons (fur pelts are not icons, tassles and fiddly bits are not icons). The confusions and problems arrise when you make the SW 3rd Great company right down to the details and then say they are something else. It causes the other player to simply be off of their game.