Advice on Trade

[jordanmh84]

Hi,

I don't want anyone to get the bad idea, the person I am about to ask about is not a bad trader or unknown or anything like that. He has a low rating on here, although I would be curious to know if anyone else has traded with him because I know the reference system is down right now.

His name is huntersdomain. He is offering to do painting for me for a good deal, and I am planning on sending him around 2.5K worth of chaos to be painted. I won't tell you the deal he made with me, as that I think should be private for his business' sake in case it would compromise anything. I just want to know the proper steps to take to ensure paper trail, payment choice, and trade order to make sure I don't 'lose' half my army.

He seems to have a good ebay rating although I know here that doesn't mean anything. So any advice on how to approach this and any good/bad experiences with him or just in general that may apply would be appreciated. Hunter, I hope this is not taken offensively, I just want to be careful.

[JohnHwangBT]

The trader reference system is working for reading:
huntersdomain (2) feedback: "Good trader, would trade with him again."

If it were me and my army, I would:
- ask him for 5 references on Bartertown that he's painted for, and follow-up with them to determine if I want to hire him in the first place
- ask to see his gallery of painted minis, to see if I like his painting style

I definitely wouldn't send 2500 pts of stuff to him without checking first.
- plan to have the army painted in blocks, maybe start with 500 pts of Troops before moving on to other things.
- ship exclusively via US Mail with Delivery Confirmation

- pay on progress milestones
- pay via USPS Postal Money Orders, sent by regular US Mail.

I strongly recommend that payment and shipment be done via US Mail. Mail Fraud carries *very* serious penalties, much more than what what he might risk in civil suit (i.e. he can be sent to prison for Mail Fraud).

And of course, document everything in a separate file off Bartertown, keep copies of all messages and pictures and stuff. Just in case.
____

You're in Canada? I wouldn't do the deal at all because trading across borders is a pain, with customs and such.

[jordanmh84]

I guess I should have clarified, it doesn't work to post new ones, as I should have a rating by now (I have had 3 successful, what I would call good trades) so I am assuming he might have done trades and not received a rating for them yet.

I live in Canada, so the US mail thing may not work.

[vesrian]

I've never sent an army to be painted, so i can't help you much there. But if you're using his ebay feedback as a deciding factor, you should confirm that it's actually his account. If you have an ebay account, you can send a message to him through ebay. Or he can send one to you.

I have no reason to think it's not his account, but it would be prudent to check.

[starslayer]

No offense to Huntersdomain- but I would NOT send an entire army to someone with such low refs. Especially to another Country.

[MagickalMemories]

I agree with everyone above to one degree or another.

FYI, if you are Canadian and send something to him through the mail and he tries to rip you off, it IS Mail fraud, so no worries there.

Even before I found out you were in the Great White North, I was going to suggest against a Money Order.

My suggestion is, as advised earlier, break your deal down into blocks.... Say he's painting 2500 points for $2500... Separate your stuff into $500 blocks @ 500 points each... Send him a block. When it's painted and images received/approved, you pay him the first $500 via PayPal.
From that point, you have 45 days to receive your models (plenty of time), or you file a claim with payPal and they return your money.
If the cash isn't in his account, they freeze it. No prob. You're out $500 and 500 points of minis, but it could be worse. KWIM?

When you receive the first 500 points back from him, you send him the next 500. Shipping will cost you more but (a) you'll have a better chance of avoiding customs on smaller lots and (b) it's worth it to minimize your exposure risk.

If he says anything about needing a down payment... Ask why.
He doesn't have to purchase the minis or any supplies (if he's a painter, he should already have his supplies) and, if YOU bail on the deal, he has 500 points of painted models he can sell to offset his loss of time.

Eric

[kturock]

if he's in the US and you're in CA, then it'd still be a US felony for mail fraud.

you can still buy and send money orders that are cashable at a usps. i don't know how much they cost in CA, but they're honored in the US. i think you can get them in the CA post offices. check into seeing if you can get insurance with you're 'regular' mail. i don't know if you can check on line or if you have to go to a store.
you can always send it registered. yes, it'll cost morre, but it will be insured/insurable.

how much $$ worth of minis would you send at a time; 2 blocks of troops? that's what, 2 boxes? so $80-100? that's not worth insuring? i would.. and do.

i just sent 3 different usps money orders out to 3 different dealers for online auctions; from another site. [no not ebay].
all 3 were sent certified with return receipt. the mo's cost $1.50 each. the last mo was for $1000. certified is $2.70 and the return receipt is another $2.20, plus .42 postage. each cost me $5.32 to mail..if any of the dealers claims they didn't receive it, i'll have a signature as well as the online notice that it was delivered.

it'd make it hard to claim non-receipt then.

it's up to you, but i'd send blocks, then if something happens, like he gets behind or can't finish, you won't have to wait as long to get it all back. alos, what if you don't like his paint job? then you'll have an entire army that you don't like.. rather than a few minis or squads of troops.

..

[starslayer]

Yeah its a crime, its a felony. No disrespect towards you. I respect you, you know your stuff.

But please tell me one person, just one, that went to court, got a criminial record, paid fines, or spent a day or even 1 hour in jail because of mail fraud or rip-offs on Bartertown. Name one. Anyone?? Can anyone name one person??

Not even the notorious Ticknor or Drop Zone. They got away with it basically.

The goal is to never let it get that far. Be careful.Protect yourself.

[MagickalMemories]

You are correct that it hasn't happened... but that doesn't mean it won't.

Kalieb Davis (Painter6479) has ripped off a number of people.
One of them is a lawyer.
That lawyer is gathering his evidence to forward to Kalieb's local Prosecuting Attorney.
He will do something that nobody has done to scammers here before... Follow through to the end (court).
What Kalieb has of his models and cash = 10 felony counts for theft. This does not include mail fraud, etc, which will be tacked on.

The only thing that will save Kalieb is if he gets his models and cash back.

Eric

[jordanmh84]

Well now that you have struck a righteous fear in me. I am not sure that sending everything one piece at a time is economically feasible for me, so what do I do at that point? I guess hold off and paint my own stuff is the obvious, or do I do some test runs? Send stuff as I can afford it?

At what point is someone trustworthy?

[starslayer]

Well now that you have struck a righteous fear in me.
At what point is someone trustworthy?

You have to make your own decision on that. To me, not at a rating of 0 or 2. Maybe he can give you something to make you feel better,like his work/home #'s,etc. Nobody wants someone calling their job.
I would look for a painter with alot better rating.

MM- I bet they arent in 2 different countries. Im just saying try not to get it to that point. Be careful.

[Adunaphel]

At what point is someone trustworthy?

Well, now that is one heck of a question.
You will get many answers.
Most experienced traders LIKE to see a 100+ rating before they are really comfortable with a trader.
Some of us (like me) will trade evenly with a trader who has a rating of 50+ IF they don't have any negative or neutral references. And by evenly I mean that we will simul-send or send a paypal payment to and so forth.

I can't stress enough the idea of actually READING the references. A whole lot can be gleaned from WHAT traders write about their fellow traders. DON'T just go by the numbers!

For a newer trader it is very hard to break through some of the barriers. But, in my opinion, so far you show the "right stuff".
And BEFORE everybody jumps on me, I OWE Jordan a positive reference whenever the reference system comes back up. He was an excellent trade partner for me.

Just because a trader has a few references doesn't make them instantly respectable. I am NOT disparaging huntersdomain AT ALL. I have had no dealings with him, so I can neither attack nor vouch for him.

I think kturock's idea of sending it in small pieces is a great idea, but if it is too cost preventative then you might want to do a rethink.

Karl

[MagickalMemories]

At what point is someone trustworthy?
Heck. Anyone who can answer THAT can solve half the problems with online trading! LOL

The point that they are trustworthy is the point where you feel you can trust them.

Like Adun said, I do NOT know huntersdomain and am NOT making AND disparaging comments about him AT ALL. In no way is anything I've said (or will say) geared towards ANY individual. It's all general knowledge/information/advice gained from experience.

Best I can say is to tell you what *I* would do.

Presuming I've found someone I want to paint my minis, but I'm not totally certain HOW trustworthy he is (low rating, etc.):
I will ask and receive a LAND LINE phone number.
I will call that number and speak with him personally.
I will attempt to "Google" that number to see if it matches up with the information I've been given.
I will send my minis in SMALL groups with Delivery Confirmation & Signature Required.
I will PAYPAL payment after receiving satisfactory images of the completed models.
When I receive that batch back, I'll send the next batch.
After a few batches, I'll send larger groups.

If he has a problem with ANY of that, I will not do business with him.

Painter6479 was a wake up for me.
He had only a few ref's, as I recall, but they were good.
He'd done work for people I knew.
I put too much trust in that.
Now, I'm back to being a skeptic.

MM- I bet they arent in 2 different countries. Im just saying try not to get it to that point. Be careful.

Absolutely right. I was simply addressing the point of nobody having been prosecuted yet.
You're correct. It would be insanely difficult from a different country.

Eric

[JohnHwangBT]

what do I do at that point?

At what point is someone trustworthy?

That is entirely up to you. If I were you, I'd think about spray-and-wash painting techniques: spray a base color, (do a little detail work), wash with GW washes.

Trustworthy is hard to quantify, but on Btown, I don't even start feeling comfortable until I'm dealing with someone 50+, and prefer 100+.