Bartertown.com

Usually I would be willing to give a person some time to remedy a back out but this guy sure as heck doesn’t seem to be coming back around. I will hold off leaving a negative reference in case he changes his mind in the next day or so but he checked and didn’t respond to my last pm. I don’t know why I am a back out magnet and the rational behind this back out just kills me. He seemed totally into the price when he offered it not once but twice.

griffon
Sent: Tue Jan 19, 2010 9:17 pm
by jpdolarz
what condition is the griffon in
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Re: griffon
Sent: Tue Jan 19, 2010 9:43 pm
by gwaddict
I assume you are talking about, Emperor Karl Franz on Deathclaw. I dont play empire but the griffin appears to be complete. let me know if you are interested.

Paul


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Re: griffon
Sent: Tue Jan 19, 2010 10:25 pm
by jpdolarz
is it bear metal or paint etc?



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Re: griffon
Sent: Tue Jan 19, 2010 10:29 pm
by gwaddict
Bare metal, feel free to make a offer.

Paul



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Re: griffon
Sent: Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:55 am
by jpdolarz
Cool, I just want the griffon I dont need the rider if its possible,

How is 25


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Re: griffon
Sent: Thu Jan 21, 2010 3:41 pm
by jpdolarz
Did you get the offer -25 for griffon, so lets talk about this if your not satisfied


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Re: griffon for cash
Sent: Mon Jan 25, 2010 4:17 pm
by gwaddict
Sorry for the delay this week was hectic, yhea that sounds good. Like I mentioned I dont play empire but the thing sure looks complete to me.

So you send $25 + s&h

Upon receipt I send

The metal unpainted/unbuilt griffin Deathclaw

Let me know you adress and I will get him boxed up and give you a total cost incl. Shipping.

Paul

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Re: griffon for cash
Sent: Mon Jan 25, 2010 4:33 pm
by jpdolarz
34 falcon drive budd lake nj 07828 justin proto
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Re: griffon for cash
Sent: Mon Jan 25, 2010 4:35 pm
by gwaddict
Cool,
I should be able to go to the post office by thursday and let you know the total. Pleasure trading with you. Whats your name by the way?

Paul


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Re: griffon for cash
Sent: Thu Jan 28, 2010 5:25 pm
by gwaddict
Priority mail for the fella would be 4.80 + .70 for delivery confirmation. Your total is $30.50
If you can send that to my paypal at Waterguy17@aol.com that would be great.

Pleasure trading with you.

Paul


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Re: griffon for cash
Sent: Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:21 pm
by jpdolarz
Hows 25 for the total

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Re: griffon for cash
Sent: Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:30 pm
by gwaddict
We kinda already agreed to 25+ S&H. The best I can do is to eat the delivery confirmation so that would be $29.80. Pleasure trading with you.

My paypal is Waterguy17@aol.com


Once money arrives I will ship to

Justin Proto
34 Falcon Drive
Budd Lake NJ 07828

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Re: griffon for cash
Sent: Sun Jan 31, 2010 9:28 pm
by jpdolarz
Im not trying to be a pushover but i found the samething brand new for 32 total on another site so at this point id be a fool to pay you the same. I sorry for any inconvience

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Re: griffon for cash
Sent: Sun Jan 31, 2010 9:33 pm
by gwaddict
So just to be clear

My last post seems to have gotten cut off, here it is.

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Re: griffon for cash
Sent: Sun Jan 31, 2010 9:33 pm
by gwaddict

So just to be clear you are backing out of this trade, after packaging up the item and taking it to the post office for a price check>?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

He made an offer ($25).
You agreed and indicated that it was to be $25 PLUS S&H, then asked for his address.
He replied with his address and did not mention the shipping. This constitutes agreement to me.

Report is valid.

Eric

I disagree here. The sending of his address in no way constitutes a deal. He sent his address so gwaddict could give him an estimate on how much the shipping would cost. Once jpdolarz got the total price he countered with "25 total". At this point you are both still in negotiations, no agreed upon deal. jpdolarz found a better deal and took it.

i agree with ironhide. i frequently send my zipcode in deals so the person can check the ACTUAL shipping costs but that doesn't constitute an agreement. sending an address is one thing but the pm before the "backout" from the seller is still haggling the total price. how is that an agreement? i've copied and pasted the pricing stuff below for ease.

[i]buyer:Did you get the offer -25 for griffon

seller:So you send $25 + s&h Let me know you adress and I will get him boxed up and give you a total cost incl. Shipping.

buyer:34 falcon drive budd lake nj 07828 justin proto

seller:Priority mail for the fella would be 4.80 + .70 for delivery confirmation. Your total is $30.50

buyer:Hows 25 for the total

seller:We kinda already agreed to 25+ S&H. The best I can do is to eat the delivery confirmation so that would be $29.80.

buyer:Im not trying to be a pushover but i found the samething brand new for 32 total on another site so at this point id be a fool to pay you the same. I sorry for any inconvience[/i]


every single pm is still a back and forth regarding the total price.

Ironhide wrote:I disagree here. The sending of his address in no way constitutes a deal. He sent his address so gwaddict could give him an estimate on how much the shipping would cost. Once jpdolarz got the total price he countered with "25 total". At this point you are both still in negotiations, no agreed upon deal. jpdolarz found a better deal and took it.

The seller communicated his feelings and thoughts appropriately.
If the buyer did not intend it to be an agreement, he should have been clearer in his communications. If he had no intentions of paying the shipping (considering that his initial $25 offer was the same as his "post address send" offer), he had no reason to send his address for the purposes of allowing the OP to get a shipping price.
Had he wished to price shipping before committing, he should have included some sort of verbiage saying as much, "Here's my address. Let's see what the total is with shipping, first."

This has been covered before. Recently, in fact. Wording that implies consent is consent. "Sounds good" is consent. That ruling has been made.
If he said, "That price sounds good," in the context of negotiations via PM or email (after an offer is made), we DO consider it consent for backout purposes, even if he only meant it as an opinion on the price. Same goes here.


Also,

i frequently send my zipcode in deals so the person can check the ACTUAL shipping costs but that doesn't constitute an agreement.

This is very different than sending your entire address.
If I make you an offer and you only reply with a zip code, there's no way I can ship it out. Therefore, no implied consent.

I still maintain my initial opinion.

Eric

This is NOT a backout.

GWA and JD confirmed model in question
JD offered $25 for the griffon
GWA asked for $25+S&H, requested address to determine S&H total
JD provided address to confirm S&H
GWS wanted over $5 for S&H, $30+
JD said he had a better offer, offered $25
GWS claimed they had a deal, wanted $30

Nowhere did JD ever say that he agreed to send payment, and the address context is clearly for the purposes of determining a price total.

This "backout" report is completely unwarranted, and any Negative or Neutral Feedback should be appealed.

MagickalMemories wrote:The seller communicated his feelings and thoughts appropriately.

NOT EVEN CLOSE. The seller NEVER requested confirmation of a deal.

MagickalMemories wrote:If the buyer did not intend it to be an agreement, he should have been clearer in his communications. If he had no intentions of paying the shipping (considering that his initial $25 offer was the same as his "post address send" offer), he had no reason to send his address for the purposes of allowing the OP to get a shipping price.

COMPLETELY WRONG. The buyer sent the address to get a quote, and the initial $25 was clearly for everything (shipping included). The seller wanted $25+S&H, and requested address for a total price. The buyer provided address for the sole purpose of determining total price. No additional communication was necessary, and BTown rules require explicit confirmation that the buyer NEVER provided.

MagickalMemories wrote:Had he wished to price shipping before committing, he should have included some sort of verbiage saying as much, "Here's my address. Let's see what the total is with shipping, first."

NOPE. The buyer isn't an idiot who's going to commit to buying against an unknown S&H total.

Tell you what, Eric - I'll sell you any GW Battleforce box you want (valued at $90 or more) for just a penny ($0.01) plus S&H. Just give me your address, and I'll box it up and give you the total.

C'mon, Eric, send me your address like the buyer did... I *dare* you.

MagickalMemories wrote:This has been covered before. Recently, in fact. Wording that implies consent is consent. "Sounds good" is consent. That ruling has been made.
If he said, "That price sounds good," in the context of negotiations via PM or email (after an offer is made), we DO consider it consent for backout purposes, even if he only meant it as an opinion on the price. Same goes here.

OK, show us where the buyer said "sounds good" or "the price sounds good" or anything like that. Nowhere did the buyer every give a positive indication on anything or anything like that. The buyer was very consistent in offering $25 for the model (shipped). The *seller* wanted more for shipping, but didn't get it.

MagickalMemories wrote:I still maintain my initial opinion.

You can maintain whatever opinion you like. It's still wrong.

I agreed with JohnHwangBT,
I think JPdolarz was offering $25.00 and assumed that included shipping.
gwaddict assumed $25.00 did not include shipping.

A price of $25.00 was aggreed to.
Whether or not that $25.00 included shipping was never agreed to by both parties.

Just my $.02.

This thread is a backout reporting thread.

Whether you agree with my decision or not, it is NOT a place to discuss it, per Bartertown's rules.

Off topic posts in this thread posted after this warning will be nuked and a board warning issued.

If you want to discuss this topic in general or in specific, start a new topic in a discussion forum. Do not do it here.

Eric

wowzers lots of opinions out there.

Here is my take

He offered to purchase the model for $25

I accepted, and as always I confirmed the particulars of the trade, as no mention was made of shipping and handling, I wanted to clarify his offer. So in an effort to be clear that I was accepting his offer at $25 + S&H I said as much.

If he had not been in fact offering $25 + S&H he should have said..... no I dont want to pay shipping in addition to the $25 and not just send me his address. His sending of the address implies his concurrence with my confirmation of the trade being $25 + S&H.

It is not my fault that he later found out that he could buy the model for $32 (I would like to know the site too), my unpainted unassmebled model without sales tax and delivery still being cheaper by the way.... I guess I fail to see how anyone thinks this isnt a back out.

"I'll sell you any GW Battleforce box you want (valued at $90 or more) for just a penny ($0.01) plus S&H"
In regards to this point, it irks me as its suggests that I would be grossly overcharging for shipping and handling. Which I never ever do.

"The buyer was very consistent in offering $25 for the model (shipped). The *seller* wanted more for shipping, but didn't get it"

The buyer did not say $25 shipped that would be a WHOLE different item and exactly how he should have offered. I did not want "more" for shipping but was clarifing his semi vauge offer. Any online shop has the price of the item as one thing and shipping and handling as a totally seperate expense. Ie I make $25 as offered and break even on shipping and handling

Re: griffon
Sent: Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:55 am
by jpdolarz
Cool, I just want the griffon I dont need the rider if its possible,

How is 25


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Re: griffon
Sent: Thu Jan 21, 2010 3:41 pm
by jpdolarz
Did you get the offer -25 for griffon, so lets talk about this if your not satisfied

This was JD initial offer.

Re: griffon for cash
Sent: Mon Jan 25, 2010 4:17 pm
by gwaddict
Sorry for the delay this week was hectic, yhea that sounds good. Like I mentioned I dont play empire but the thing sure looks complete to me.

So you send $25 + s&h

Upon receipt I send

The metal unpainted/unbuilt griffin Deathclaw

Let me know you adress and I will get him boxed up and give you a total cost incl. Shipping.

Paul

Your counter offer. You ask for an address to compute total cost.

Re: griffon for cash
Sent: Mon Jan 25, 2010 4:33 pm
by jpdolarz
34 falcon drive budd lake nj 07828 justin proto

He sends you his address so you can give him the total, so he can decide whether or not to do the deal.

Re: griffon for cash
Sent: Mon Jan 25, 2010 4:35 pm
by gwaddict
Cool,
I should be able to go to the post office by thursday and let you know the total. Pleasure trading with you. Whats your name by the way?

Paul

Here you are assuming he has agreed to a deal. When he has not.

Re: griffon for cash
Sent: Thu Jan 28, 2010 5:25 pm
by gwaddict
Priority mail for the fella would be 4.80 + .70 for delivery confirmation. Your total is $30.50
If you can send that to my paypal at Waterguy17@aol.com that would be great.

Pleasure trading with you.

Paul

Still assuming he has agreed to the deal.

Re: griffon for cash
Sent: Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:21 pm
by jpdolarz
Hows 25 for the total

He counteroffers.

No one had agreed to anything. You were both still negotiating. During your negotiation, he found a better deal and took it. Not a backout.

"So you send $25 + s&h" is a confirmation of his offer to purchase, I always confirm, as his offers wasn't 100% clear.

If what I was confirming was not the case then he could have said " no I meant $25 total" and not have given me his address resulting in my believing that I had accurately understood his offer and hence took time from my day to get him information.

Here are two new pms added to the list of pms

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Re: griffon for cash
Sent: Tue Feb 02, 2010 4:17 pm
by gwaddict

Correction you offered $25 and were vague on s&h and most definately did not say $25 total. Just like any online store they charge a price for merchandise and then add shipping and handling unless the s&h is already agreed to be included in the price, ie free shipping. I confirmed that you meant $25 +S&H and got your address to get you a final total charge, one that was totally reasonable, if you did not agree that it was 25 + S&h you could have clearly stated when I asked for your address to get the total that was not what your offer intended. I took time out of my day to do so, for you to then think that you can find a better deal somewhere else is frustrating to say the least.

If you think you can buy a direct mail item for 25% off retail with free shipping and no sales tax then I wish you the best of luck. You have made it clear that you do not wish to honor the deal we had and as such will be placed on my "list".

I will be including these pms in the Deadbeat/Backout thread I already started on the matter. I hope that any future traders you might encounter dont deal with the same issues.
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Quote jpdolarzRe: griffon for cash
Sent: Tue Feb 02, 2010 4:05 pm
by jpdolarz

My friend, this is free market, your competition has a better price, I offered 25 and You refused. I apologize for the inconvience, but I assume that you will eventually need to package it anyway. The 1st price is is 81% of retail while the 2nd is 74%. I can get a new model for the same percentage. We can compromise but I said 25 Total in the first message I sent you. Again Sorry.

and another pm to add
----------------------------------------------------
Re: griffon for cash
Sent: Tue Feb 02, 2010 4:34 pm
From: jpdolarz
To: gwaddict

If you can show me saying yes i will pay 32.50 i will give you 32.50 for the model otherwise put me on your list 1000 times, you'd rather make $0 THAT IS TOTALLY YOUR CHOOSING. Do not pass blame to me because you assumed something, there is a saying if you haven't ever heard it: "assumptions are the mother of all *edit* ups." I read most of the posts on your post and most agree w/ me. What do you think happens w/ any other kind of business, instead of just being a man about it you went crying like a child. So best of luck to you

Thank you all for your input. Per request from multiple parties I am reviewing the matter and will announce my decision shortly. Kindly refrain from posting until then.

*edit*
I do not find this Backout to be valid.

With due respect, Eric, I disagree with you. I think gwaddict jumped the gun. He stated "Give me your address and I'll give you an accurate total," which JP did. In reading it, I see where the linguistic hangup is:

So you send $25 + s&h
Upon receipt I send
The metal unpainted/unbuilt griffin Deathclaw
Let me know you adress and I will get him boxed up and give you a total cost incl. Shipping.

GWaddict is thinking "If you agree to my terms, send me your address." In other words, that the whole message is one conjoined logical proposition.
JP is thinking they are separate logical entities. He is waiting for the total S&H before agreeing and IMO is wise to do so. S&H is something a LOT of people get burned on. Shoot, I got burned on it once when I started here. That was the most expensive damn cardboard box ever and I learned my lesson. Were I JP, I would've reacted in a similar fashion.

While I think both parties could have been a little clearer in their communication, that's neither here nor there. I don't see any direct evidence of malicious intent.

If anyone has anything relevant to say - even if you disagree with me - go ahead and say it. I'll leave comments open for about a day or so and then remove the thread.