Bartertown.com

***I AM NOT SELLING/TRADING ANY MMO CURRENCY/ITEMS/ACCOUNTS ON THIS WEBSITE***

Hmmm, always wondered. I'm part of like 4-5 trade sites(for different kinds of things), and noticed they all don't allow the selling of Online MMO stuff(accounts/currency/items...etc). On a side note, SOME allow TRADING of the online stuff, but not SELLING. How is this different?




WHY???







Is it a trademark thing? Can the WEBSITE get in trouble for these kinds of ads??? I was under the impression that if you sell your "TIME" to "get these items/level your character/collect the gold" and not sell the ACTUAL items(since those are property of the company), it was OK???

I see these things on Craigslist all the time. There are NUMEROUS Gold Selling sites online that do this stuff. Hell, some games are allowed on ebay and some aren't??? Why is this?

The next question would be: If it is not ok to SELL these items? Would it ok to TRADE these items???

I don't understand how I am doing anything against ANY RULES by offering my "TIME" to "HELP" a "FRIEND" in an online game... I see no difference in paying someone to come to your house to beat the first level of Super Mario because you cannot get past it???? I am simply "giving my friend gold" in the game to "help" them with the game. Of course, I would be selling or trading for it in real life, but there would be no written proof of it.


Perhaps this can be done through PMs? And not in public? Is it only in "public" this is not allowed? With the "this is not actual items and you are paying for my time not items" disclaimer, doesn't that make it "ok" to do?


But I do not wish to break the rules and post in anyone's thread or create my own on here. Yet the gold sellers/gold farmers, and people on craigslist can do it...

Again, I really don't know the whole back story, I did some yahoo research, but really didn't see anything. And the EULA in ALL of these games(the user agreement when you install the game and stuff) do not have any jurisdiction over your "time."



How does any know, or CARE, or even have any jurisdiction over you trading something in the game? People trade items in game all the time. Donno how this is different than giving people stuff.

I believe it all comes down to PUBLIC trading/selling? You think that the private (between friends, family, anyone) is ok???

I mean, how the hell do they know you aren't just GIVING people stuff? I'm just slightly confused about this ENTIRE thing...

I believe most if not all MMO's do not allow you to sell your accounts,gold ect as part of the agreement you sign when you register to play
Cheers
Steve

peacemystic wrote:I believe most if not all MMO's do not allow you to sell your accounts,gold ect as part of the agreement you sign when you register to play
Cheers
Steve

TY for your reply. I did however mention this is my original post.

The EULA for ALL games(not a single one I've played) state that they OWN everything about your account.

However, again, they do not own your time.




The thing I cannot comprehend is why you can have an IN GAME auction house, or trade area, or market or whatever, and you can trade items in game. Or HELL, even GIVE PEOPLE STUFF. When I left WoW I gave away over 20,000 gold. What is the difference in me GIVING AWAY 5,000 gold and me accepting money for 5,000 gold? IF, I do not publicly display the transaction?


Is it against World of Warcraft rules for me to give my friend 5,000 gold? No.... Is it against the LAW, for my friend to give me $100 in real life? No.... HOWEVER, it is against the rules for my friend to give me $100 in return for 5,000 gold.



Odd huh? The age-old sex or money debate...

Where do you draw the line between GIVING GIFTS and TRADING FOR SERVICE? Unfortunately in a court of law, proof of a trade must be present (usually by means of stings and witnesses). However, if there are no witnesses, and there is no sting... Is it against the rules? I guess Morality comes into play too...


Perhaps this thread will get derailed faster than I think... ;p

sorry,i wasn't going to read the whole Rant/covert trade thread....but i believe its IP rights

The bottom line is that you're correct. They don't own your TIME. This has nothing to do with your TIME and everything to do with the stuff you gained on THEIR site DURING that time.

You did agree not to sell any of that stuff.

It's against THEIR rules.
As such, it's against OUR rules. If they say not to do it, we won't be enabling it.


Eric

I also want to add:

I don't understand how I am doing anything against ANY RULES by offering my "TIME" to "HELP" a "FRIEND" in an online game... I see no difference in paying someone to come to your house to beat the first level of Super Mario because you cannot get past it???? I am simply "giving my friend gold" in the game to "help" them with the game. Of course, I would be selling or trading for it in real life, but there would be no written proof of it.

This is VERY shady and the use of "quotation marks" shows me that you know it is, too. Be warned that you are treading on thin ice.

Perhaps this can be done through PMs? And not in public? Is it only in "public" this is not allowed? With the "this is not actual items and you are paying for my time not items" disclaimer, doesn't that make it "ok" to do?

CAN it be? Sure.
SHOULD it be? Nope.
Against the rules is against the rules.

If you attempt to buy, sell and/or trade any of these items and are caught, you WILL be the target of...



Eric

Eric, you need to edit that card. You need to add "Split Second" to the card's ability. That way the ability cannot be countered when used. Then it would be an UBER BANHAMMER!!! Oh, yeah, also make the artifact have split second too, so it cannot be countered when being played. Oh yeah, and make it indestructible, forgot to mention that. OH! And make it shroud, that way you cannot target it. Oh and add, if Banhammer would leave play, return it to play under it's Owner's control.

I knew you would post something that would target ME and not the POST. If I was posting a MMO ad, I would have POSTED AN MMO AD... I was asking WHY. The RULE is shady, *I* am not shady. I am simply pointing that out and asking the question of why I cannot advertise those items. *I* being ME and anyone else who has MMO currency/items/accounts.

What does my use of quotation marks matter? I am not saying *I* am "helping" a "friend." I am saying that whoever selling MMO currency(or gives items)(however, it could be ME if I was selling/trading), is simply "helping" a "friend." Clearly they are not friends, and probably have never met before. However, who knows this, how can it be proven, and how is it against rules?

I seriously believe(and again I'm waiting for someone to actually answer my question instead of targeting *ME*), that it is a PUBLICLY enforced rule and doesn't target non-business personel.


I have a couple proposed analogies here:
Yes, I know, selling weed is illegal, only because WEED is illegal. If WEED itself was LEGAL, you could sell it. However, lets say, if WEED was LEGAL, but SELLING weed was ILLEGAL, we would have the above MMO situation.

Having sex is not against rules, however selling sex is...

MMO Currency/Items/Accounts is not against any laws or rules, however the SELLING of said items is against rules, BUT NOT AGAINST THE LAW... <---- Which brings me to my next point.

If something is not against the law, and simply against the terms of use(aka, the most that can happen is you getting banned from the game, whoopie), why is it not allowed in the public eye? Do you think that could be against our Constitutional Rights of freedom of speech if what we are advertising does not break laws, simply is taboo?

Using swear words aren't considered good manors and are "taboo," but do not break any laws(don't draw an gray lines here, I'm not talking about cussing out cops, I'm talking about just using them). Of course you cannot tell a cop to go F*** himself... You guys know what I am talking about...



I'm really not trying to start anything here(even though you know how much you love me Eric), I guess I'm just trying to figure out the "why." Because: "Just Because," isn't good enough for me(I know, I know: "It should be..." blah blah).

Thoughts?


I KNOW the basis of this rule is enforced because the game companies cannot monitor and collect profits from personal sales of their "items/gold/accounts." <---- Even though the Korean Free-To-Play games make a killing selling their OWN stuff to people... I am pretty sure this is only in the EULA to give them a reason to ban your account for the selling of their stuff. Can this hold any legal reparations? Is this against the law??? This is not copying a movie and bootlegging it (where those items actually have a LEGAL disclaimer).

I just wish I had the answer... Eve better yet, wish I knew why something that isn't against the law is against the "rules."




PS: OP edited per HarlequinZero's request(errrrr command), who believes I may be implying I am trying to sell/trade MMO currency/items/accounts on this site. I am NOT.

It's against the rules.

You know that Linrandir has actually got NEW rules out for scrutiny. You should ask him on that thread.

Or better yet, PM Linrandir directly.

Karl

J35T3R.us wrote:Eric, you need to edit that card. You need to add "Split Second" to the card's ability. That way the ability cannot be countered when used. Then it would be an UBER BANHAMMER!!! Oh, yeah, also make the artifact have split second too, so it cannot be countered when being played. Oh yeah, and make it indestructible, forgot to mention that. OH! And make it shroud, that way you cannot target it. Oh and add, if Banhammer would leave play, return it to play under it's Owner's control.

Actually, I don't need ANY of that stuff. Especially not a duplicated "spplit Second ability. As this is Bartertown and not M:tG, you have NONE of those abilities here, regardless of what images you may decide to post.
... and the banhammer never leaes play. It's always on the table.
<insert wicked grin>

J35T3R.us wrote:I knew you would post something that would target ME and not the POST. If I was posting a MMO ad, I would have POSTED AN MMO AD... I was asking WHY. The RULE is shady, *I* am not shady. I am simply pointing that out and asking the question of why I cannot advertise those items. *I* being ME and anyone else who has MMO currency/items/accounts.

Pray tell, how did I target you, specifically? You used the word "I." In replying, and refering to comments about it, I would obviously use the word "you," just as YOU used it to refer to ME.
Now, if you're referring to the "thin ice" comment... that was targeting comments in your POST and not YOU. To target YOU, I'd have to say "you are shady," for example.

J35T3R.us wrote:What does my use of quotation marks matter? I am not saying *I* am "helping" a "friend." I am saying that whoever selling MMO currency(or gives items)(however, it could be ME if I was selling/trading), is simply "helping" a "friend." Clearly they are not friends, and probably have never met before. However, who knows this, how can it be proven, and how is it against rules?

If you were using the quotes as you state, then you were misusing them. You should have said, "someone is helping a friend" and left the quotes off of "helping" and "friend," as they excessively emphasize them. In common English discussions, this is done so as to make a point of those words (also see "air quotes"). Unless you're implying something shady, I cannot see a reason for excessively emphasizing them.

J35T3R.us wrote:I seriously believe(and again I'm waiting for someone to actually answer my question instead of targeting *ME*), that it is a PUBLICLY enforced rule and doesn't target non-business personel.

You are only half correct. As an Administrator, I will tell you what it is.

It is a publicly and privately enforced rule that targets anyone attempting to sell/trade/etc. and MMO items or items that exist only in the digital realm.
In other words, we will enforce the rule against anyone who comes to our attention as violating it in the public forums OR via private message.

I certainly hope you didn't feel targeted there. I made certain not to refer to any one specific individual or entity that you might associate with yourself.

J35T3R.us wrote:I have a couple proposed analogies here:
Yes, I know, selling weed is illegal, only because WEED is illegal. If WEED itself was LEGAL, you could sell it. However, lets say, if WEED was LEGAL, but SELLING weed was ILLEGAL, we would have the above MMO situation.

Which would mean that TRADING for marijuana would be illegal, as well, as trading is a form of purchase.

J35T3R.us wrote:Having sex is not against rules, however selling sex is...

Same end result as above.

J35T3R.us wrote:MMO Currency/Items/Accounts is not against any laws or rules, however the SELLING of said items is against rules, BUT NOT AGAINST THE LAW... <---- Which brings me to my next point.

The laws of any nation don't matter in this case. Only the rules. For all intents and purposes, Website "Rules" are the "laws" of that website... <---- Which brings me to your next point.

J35T3R.us wrote:If something is not against the law, and simply against the terms of use(aka, the most that can happen is you getting banned from the game, whoopie), why is it not allowed in the public eye? Do you think that could be against our Constitutional Rights of freedom of speech if what we are advertising does not break laws, simply is taboo?

"Allowed in the public eye" is a misnomer, as it infers a message that it is acceptable IN PRIVATE. It is not. As for the right to free speech... No. This is not a public forum. It's a PRIVATE forum where the public is allowed to "visit." As such, the public is bound by our rules as much as they are by the laws of the land they live in (not all of which guarantee Free Speech as a Constitutional Right, BTW).
If someone lives in a state where it's legal to smoke in public places, and that person goes into a bar where they have "no smoking" signs and lights up a cigarette, they are allowed to throw that person out.
Same concept.

J35T3R.us wrote:Using swear words aren't considered good manors and are "taboo," but do not break any laws(don't draw an gray lines here, I'm not talking about cussing out cops, I'm talking about just using them). Of course you cannot tell a cop to go F*** himself... You guys know what I am talking about...

So, what? It's still against the rules and, as a private forum, we are allowed to enforce said rules.
I really don't see what point you are trying to make.

J35T3R.us wrote:I'm really not trying to start anything here(even though you know how much you love me Eric), I guess I'm just trying to figure out the "why." Because: "Just Because," isn't good enough for me(I know, I know: "It should be..." blah blah).

Thoughts?

First:
Saying "even though" implies that you MIGHT be trying to stir the pot a bit. it doesn't matter, though, as you are correct. I DO love you. I love everyone.
Note the lack of sarcasm, BTW.
I have nothing but love in my heart for EVERYONE.
There have ben those in the past who i did not LIKE, however.

secondly, re: "trying to figure out "why."
I told you why.

MagickalMemories wrote:This has nothing to do with your TIME and everything to do with the stuff you gained on THEIR site DURING that time.

You did agree not to sell any of that stuff.

It's against THEIR rules.
As such, it's against OUR rules. If they say not to do it, we won't be enabling it.

Not only did I not just give you a "because" response, I didn't even use the WORD "because."

J35T3R.us wrote:I KNOW the basis of this rule is enforced because the game companies cannot monitor and collect profits from personal sales of their "items/gold/accounts." <---- Even though the Korean Free-To-Play games make a killing selling their OWN stuff to people... I am pretty sure this is only in the EULA to give them a reason to ban your account for the selling of their stuff. Can this hold any legal reparations? Is this against the law??? This is not copying a movie and bootlegging it (where those items actually have a LEGAL disclaimer).

Again... We aren't talking about LAW. We're talking about RULES. The LAW doesn't matter here in the SLIGHTEST. If you agree to it in the EULA, upon registration, you acknowledge being bound by it. Period. No further explanation is necessary.

J35T3R.us wrote:I just wish I had the answer... Eve better yet, wish I knew why something that isn't against the law is against the "rules."

You've been given the answer. What you do with it is up to you.

J35T3R.us wrote:PS: OP edited per HarlequinZero's request(errrrr command), who believes I may be implying I am trying to sell/trade MMO currency/items/accounts on this site. I am NOT.

There was no IMPLICATION. You stated outright what you had available and the various ways in which you could deliver it. Whether it was your INTENT or not, it DID qualify as a trade ad.

Eric

Selling MMO stuff is like using cheat codes. Any gamer worth his salt doesn't do it. If I'm playing a MMO and I find out a guy is using "stuff" he bought from someone, I report him.

It states you can't sell their "stuff". Regardless if you had to take all that time to build you character up, find all those items, and amass all that gold; it's still their property because it is on their server.

Out of curiosity... If you and I are on an MMO, IH.... and I have [kewl magic item] that you like and you have [kewl magic thing] that I like... are we allowed to swap?

Note that, even a "Yes" won't change the site rules. I just got curious about that, all of a sudden.


Eric

You are allowed to trade, sell, give, loan, even steal(if the game mechanics allow for it, aka killing another player and looting their corpse) INSIDE THE MMO. I was trying to avoid any direct IN GAME references of trading stuff because it might have given my OP a different angle...

While you can trade/buy/sell in game(they even have Auction Houses where you can spend in game gold for items other players have put up for sale), that is all within the game so doesn't apply to the outside stuff we've been talking about.

In short, yes, I can give you my Stinky Sock of Dragon Slaying +3 for your Bartertown Banhammer. If that was a fair trade for you ;p


BTW: You know I'm not a dick. I may be outspoken, but not a dick... I like the site, use the site, and sometimes participate in these funny quarrels. <--- Although, I actually TRUTHFULLY started this thread REALLY wanting an answer as to why this is looked down upon. I do thank you for your quite through replies (those of you who take the time to....take your time ;p).

*poof*


Edit: BTW, the whole: "Its the RULES, not the law" thing really helped out. I guess putting it into a public/private example helped me out.

I'm glad it was able to help you figure it out.

As for being a d*ck... Don't worry. You'd have to actually try... and a lot harder at that... to get me ticked. I have rhino-like thick skin. : )

Eric

P.S. I will never relinquish the BanHammer. Keep the sock.

And he has rhino-like girth too.

Pow.
ZING!


Fortunately that's the second time Karl's zinged me today.


That little peanut in his noggin's used up all 2 of it's IQ points. I should be safe a while.

LOL

Eric