Bartertown.com

I'm getting tired of having to hunt people down for feedback. I'm an occasional trader, and it really gets my goat when I have to message somebody several times for feedback on a trade that goes well, and they never bother. As soon as it's done I take the first step so we can avoid the "Is he going to leave good feedback or not? I'll wait until I see what they give me then I'll give them feedback..." dance. But then, nothing. I wait, I message, nothing. How then, can I remove feedback? I really don't think it's fair that somone like me who often has to ship first because I"m not a frequent trader can get repeatidly screwed like this.

There is no way to have feedback removed for this circumstance.

Feedback can be removed, but only under certain conditions. If it was a retaliatory negative left just because you left a negative, for example. It must also be done by TrademasterAdam, the all powerful OZ of B-town and usually takes a while.

My suggestion would be to notify your trade partner that you've receive the item and are ready to leave positive feedback. You'll go ahead once they confirm they will be leaving feedback in return. They might still screw you, but if he'll lie to you, then you know not to trade with him again.

On the other hand, you could trade with me, I always leave feedback

Well, there's also the posibility of leaving a neutral. That's what, -1? Seems fair to leave a neutral response that diminishes the Good trade feedback as long as there's an explanation.

Neutral is 0.

I don't think you should leave 2 refs for the same trade.

Govannon

Neutral Feedback is +1, instead of the +2 given for Good.

Leaving multiple feedbacks for one trade is indeed a Naughty. Plus, if Neutral was -1, then leaving that to "spite" a good feedback already left is wandering close to "ITL intimidation". Basically, what I hear you say is.. "If I leave a good feedback for you and you DON'T leave me feedback at all, I will leave you a reference that will diminish your rating".

Now, having said that, and being - somewhat - down that road with you.. my advice to Galley is .. Put those traders on a Do Not Trade (personal) list.. and move on. Yep.. there are several folks out there who will happily take advantage of the feedback rating system and poot on you.

Your statement "I really don't think it's fair that somone like me who often has to ship first because I"m not a frequent trader can get repeatidly screwed like this." can also be turned around. I always leave feedback when I get whatever models are sent me, or money. This happens a lot, early in the trade, as I have ratings to have others ship to me first. Frequently, I leave feedback and never get it in return, cause the other trader already got mine and thus doesn't feel they have to leave me any.. cause I have a large rating anyhow. Still stinks.

-Porkuslime

Wow! in the space of three posts, neutral has gone from -1 to 0 to +1. Neutral's moving up in the world : )
porkuslime is right though, neutral is currently +1. It used to be zero and supposedly is going to be switched back to zero (eventually). But regardless, leaving two refs for one trade is not good.

Galley, it sucks that you didn't get your refs, but unfortunately there's really not much you can do about it. If it's any conciliation, most people who've been here for any length of time have the same problem with missing refs. We feel your pain. If you dig through the forums there'll be a bunch of posts on the topic - but it's mostly just people ranting.

Putting people who don't leave a ref on a personal Do Not Trade list is one option. Some people discuss feedback with their trade partner prior to doing trades and are even making it part of their trading rules in the hopes that it will make sure the other guy leaves a ref. Other people are going with a "lowest ref leaves feedback first" policy. That seems to make sense as the person with the lowest ref has the most to gain from leaving feedback. So theoretically they should be more likely to do so. But in practice it doesn't always work that way.

Thanks for the Feedback guys, I greatly appreciate it.

As far as the no-no of leaving two feedback for one trade, or a 'retalitory' feedback: Well yes, it is, as I suggested, exactly that, retalitory. When I enter a trade agreement, leave my appropriate feedback, and prompt the other party to leave what feedback they think is appropriate as I already have, I expect reciprocation. And if I'm in a position where I can A) Do nothing and add them to my 'poo list', or B) Leave a mark that lets others know that yes, they're a good trader, but the buck stops there in terms of feedback responsibility, then I'll gladly choose B. Putting someone on my 'Do not trade' list helps protect ME, but it dosens't help protect others, and there are plenty of 'fish' in the bartertown sea to ensure that my actions have no real effect on that individual. The feedback system is based on the character of the trader, and should rightly represent that. Somebody who has built themselves up to a +100 and beyond yet consistantly dosen't leave feedback does not deserve the feedback rating they have. And we all know of the 'higher rating can demand shipping first' rule here, which is good, but someone who does not have the integrity to leave feedback for other trades does not deserve the right to bully others into shipping first because they are unsure if someone else is trustworthy.

However with the feedback system the way it is, I have no choice BUT to leave 2 feedback notes. Unfortunately, since I can't change my feedback, and neutral just means +1, so I won't do anything about it because it's not my intent to further bolster their rating, I just wanted to change my +2 to a +1 and have the option to write in some notes.

What I don't understand at this point is why there isn't a failsafe system to augment feedback within a certain window of time. I feel that it would really help the BTR system mean more to traders if we had the option of actualy incorporating the entire trade sequence. That is, to ensure that feedback captures the agreement, shipping, payment, product quality, and proper feedback execution. I think that a 30 day post-feedback system would be effective in making sure this happens. This would be just what I'm essentially asking for - The ability to change a good to neutral or vise versa, and also edit the written details. There could even be a flagging system built in so the admins/watchmen could be alerted when someone switches a good to neutral so they could keep an eye out for any abuse of the system. I wouldn't however suggest a system like that for bad feedback at all, too many retalitory options there. If you know a trade has gone bad, that should really be the end of it once you leave feedback.

Any thoughts?

The thing is, ...there is no thing. The system has been argued and debated many times by many people. The system is not perfect, but for what it is, most people find that it's all right.

As for being frustrated at not getting feedback left for you, yes I understand very much exactly that feeling. Probably 20 times as much as you, maybe even 100 times more than you. It sucks. To get to the higher levels, all of us that have been here and gotten our feedback score up there have faced it. Those are just part of the game, because lets face it...if you traded something on here it is because you posted it or replied to someone's post. Meaning that you really accomplished your main goal and got something you wanted (whether cash or trade), so the little numbers growing under your username are just an added bonus. Admittedly a powerful bonus that over time can mean a lot, but still only a SECONDARY goal.

And on the thought of retaliatory feedback, it is just that. Read Rule #10. If you do that you will probably be banned. Whether it is mean spirited feedback or neutral feedback first, you are still putting two feedback inputs for one transaction and that is retaliatory. I am sure that if everyone did that it would clog up the system.

Sorry, the bottom line is that when you are dealing over the internet and trading, when it comes to feedback, you are going to kiss a few proverbial frogs. in fact, the more trading you do, the more frogs you will wind up kissing. But those are the breaks. just remember the ITL rating is the secondary goal of trading or selling here, unless you are a scammer setting up for the big score.

Stanislav wrote: just remember the ITL rating is the secondary goal of trading or selling here, unless you are a scammer setting up for the big score.

That's a fairly harsh way to end your position Stanislav. Just because I care about feedback I do not deserve to be looked upon in that manner, or even vaguely alluded to. It's an argument that says, "If you argue against this in any way, there's something wrong with you, and you're not to be trusted." I've been here for 2 years, hardly a long time, I know. But rather roll over like some veterans here, I still have an issue about the system, and I don't think throwing my hands up and saying, "That's the way things are, no way to argue about it, always has been that way" is an answer. I still believe that if people want to use the system, not to just obtain things, but to also build a reputation for themselves and achieve that number that tells people that you're trustworthy, then letting the system continue on down the road with that wobbly wheel isn't in our best interest. If both parties in a trade do a good job, then that needs to be represented by the BTR, because that's all we really have that lets people know that a sudo-anynomous system will work to govern itself and look after those who invest in it. What I'm proposing is not a big change whatsoever, it just provides incentive for people to finish what they started and complete that last bit of paperwork, and to not be the only ones benefiting because they are taking advantage of the good intentions of others.

Question. Do you mandate that feedback must be given as part of the trade negotiations? If not, then it is not part of the barter. A barter is "I give you A for B". Once A and B have been done, then the trade is over. If I then agree to give you something over and above what I have agreed to, that is my decision not yours. There is no assumptions in a trade, only what is written. Every trade I have been in has included the stipulations, including what the shipping order is to be (the lowest ships first is a convention, not a rule). The admins of this site have been very explicit time and time again that they would much rather treat traders like adults who can work things out beforehand than children who need a bunch of rules forced on them. So if you feel that feedback must be part of a trade, then make sure that it is specifically included in the negotiations, but don't mandate it on people who don't feel that way.


(And for the record, as far as I know the only trade I haven't left feedback on is the one i got in the mail yesterday and haven't gotten a chance to open the box on, so this isn't a "Don't tread on me" post.)

Well, as you alluded to, it's a pact between two mature adults who are taking advantage of the BTR system to help regulate their interaction. Coming to Bartertown and feeling you're not required to leave feedback and therefore not doing so is kind of like driving down the road to work, but not feeling like you need to pay taxes to keep the road in shape. People come to bartertown for a variety of reasons. Not so much because it's one of the best trading sites and you'll get more bites, but because it has a regulated system to help protect people from fraud. Investing in the BTR system helps reinforce people's perceptions of the site as being safe and good, therefore maintaining or incresing traffic. And that of course, can warrent the presence of sponsors to keep the site running.

So no, techincally I don't make it a requirement as part of my trades. I'm pretty sure none of us do. But if you so much as glance sideways to see that little number when you're trying to negotiate a trade, then you better contribute to the system.

I was not alluding to you being a scammer, just that the people that do build up a few refs, then take a few for a ride. Your profile says you have been here two years and that's cool. I don't think you really fit into that category.

These forums are for improving the system. However, most of us don't think the system is that bad. Could it be improved? Yes. Easily? No. since it is a free site for the majority of us, tacking on revisions and modifications for the Admins is only on a great need basis. IMO, this doesn't qualify. People like Porkuslime, Darksoul, myself, and several others would probably have feedback in the 4 digits or close if everyone left feedback like they should. I have probably forgotten a couple on my part as well, but if I was to be penalized for it, I would be very upset.

With your "road" analogy, same goes for this site. If you don't like it, don't use it. Not trying to be ugly, but those are the breaks. I would love to have an 800 feedback score, but like I said, for every one of those little numbers is a deal completed. Which by extension means I have received something every time I made a deal, usually something I was specifically looking for. So what if I haven't gotten every feedback for every deal. I use this website to get things I want by either trading or buying at a good deal. Ebay with all of it's millions of dollars has problems with feedback as well, so it is not the system that is broken, it is the people using it. Trying to get rules and modifications to ensure that is fruitless and (with millions of dollars behind my opinion) impossible, since you are dealing with an uncontrollable variable, people.

And even more so my opinion, I think that you trying to get something like that mandated is cheating the system that many of us have lived with for years. Like I said, I would love to have my actual 800+ rating. However, I don't. All you can do is ask for people to leave you feedback, if they do, that is a bonus. If not, that's just the way it is.

No need to be so defensive. If you feel the need to do with as you suggested, the point will be moot as you will be banned. Lin has already stated that he is not in favor of the enforced feedback rule, and even though your suggestion skims the edges, it still fits.

And you are wrong. It is the best trading site even with all of it's problems that you are suggesting. Because of the feedback...it sets it apart true, but none of the others really last or have as much traffic for their actual trading. So since none of the others have anything like the ITL, why don't you convince one of them to implement it?

The mods are too busy to start something like this now. This is not their full time job, they use their free time to keep this site going and they do a great job on it. Until they get around to it, we will just have to live with the system the way it is ....or go somewhere else.

Govannon

Well, I agree with Stanislav. Feedback isn't and shouldn't be the primary goal of any honest trader.

Pay attention to the wording: PRIMARY goal.

The primary goal is to trade your stuff. Getting the ratings should be secondary, or even terciary, at best.

Still, though, I understand your point. You earned them and it sucks not to get them.

I';ve had, probably, 20 trades or more where the other guy PMed me to let me know the stuff arrived and that he was happy, etc... but never left me a ref.

I just shrugged it off (Even when I was in lower double digits). The only one that ever ticked me off was once when I mad ea second trade with a guy and, though I left a ref, he didn't. I was under 10 ref's, then... so it made a difference. Once I hit double digits, i stopped worying about it.

Also, neutral should be leaving a 0 by now. A few weeks ago, Adam told me it was fixed (It never left a -1), and leaving a SECOND ref on a trade to let everyone know that the guy didn't leave you a REF WOULD count as ITL intimidation.


Eric

Enough of the topic of 'Trader Intimidation' line. I laid it all out in a previous post, including the conclusion that I didn't see a point of even stepping foot in that direction as it dosen't even accomplish what I thought should be built in the system. I'm not here to throw any 'bullying' BS around, I'm here to talk about a flaw in the system that, if fixed, might really benefit us all. And for the last time, yes, I think we've made it very clear that this system is about the primary gain of gaming goods, not about rating. But that isn't the issue I'm bringing up here.


Getting back to the point of this all...

So who actually thinks that a system like this would actually be beneficial? I'm hearing that some of the older folks here think it would be 'cheating' them, but that honestly dosen't seem like a good reason not to make the system better. Just because you've suffered through something should, in theory, make you more aware of the need, and not want to see future generations screwed over like you.