Bartertown.com

I am moving this discussion at the behest of MagickalMemories. I did not realize I was violating the rules in the placement of my original post, but that is no excuse. I will be sure to be more mindful of them from here on out.

I would like to start a common discussion for the six of us who were taken by the_trader, as I am wondering if, since there are so many of us, there may be possible joint action we can take together. Please see the bad trader reports filed in the Bad Trader section of this site regarding the_trader.

With the group's approval, I would like to tabulate everyone's losses and ask an E.U. lawyer I know about what possible actions there are we can take (especially tricky since so many of us are from the U.S.). I just want to get some information.

I am asking this because I feel that six similar complaints will have a great deal more impact than a single one. Besides, if by some remote chance we could all get some sort of resolution, so much the better. Please note that I am not proposing anything elaborate, costly, or requiring a great deal of time. I am just interested in applying legally and ethically acceptable pressure on the_trader to make recompense.

This is probably naive of me to think that this could be resolved, but in fourteen years of trading here and on other miniature sites, I have never had anything of the kind happen. Just chalk it up to surprise.

Is that okay with the rest of you?

Thanks for taking the lead. You have my information. Also, I've escalated a Paypal dispute to a claim, though I don't have any experience with these and have no idea if it will lead to money back.

Good luck on getting anything out of Paypal.

Scammers tend to religiously drain the paypal balances out of their accounts so that if there is a claim, Paypal will not be able to take "their" money. Paypal is also not going to go into a members bank account and try to recover funds.

What they can do, is put a claim against that account, and if money goes in.. then paypal might try to grab some for a claim.

I was able, Once! to get about 10% of a claim I filed back from a paypal dispute.

However, you MIGHT be that lucky.

Don't hope for it... consider it "found money" if you recover anything

-Porkuslime

I have escalated to a claim as well.

I do not have experience with this either but I have contacted a friend that is a store manager for a company that does alot of mailorder (http://www.hillcity-comics.com) and he informed me that paypal will reimburse us all and debit his account. Paypal will then persue the claim from him. If there is no money in his account, he will owe Paypal the money, not us. So if you payed via paypal you are safe.

if you are out money via a money order or trade you may be out of luck. This is why sellers usually HATE paypal. The customer has ALL the power.

Norseman wrote:I have escalated to a claim as well.

I do not have experience with this either but I have contacted a friend that is a store manager for a company that does alot of mailorder (http://www.hillcity-comics.com) and he informed me that paypal will reimburse us all and debit his account. Paypal will then persue the claim from him. If there is no money in his account, he will owe Paypal the money, not us. So if you payed via paypal you are safe.

if you are out money via a money order or trade you may be out of luck. This is why sellers usually HATE paypal. The customer has ALL the power.

FYI

I believe you got some bad info. It is my experience that if Paypal finds in your favor. you will not get a refund if his account is $0.00.
THAT is why scammers LOVE Paypal.

So far, by checking your posts in the BTR section and through your PMs to me, it looks like Joseph Bartle received $533.93 from eight of us without sending any items in return.

Could each of you please PM me with your first and last name, and country of residence(or if it is different, the country from which you made the purchase?

Just trying to get all the ducks in a row.

Jason

Valhallansurfer wrote:So far, by checking your posts in the BTR section and through your PMs to me, it looks like Joseph Bartle received $533.93 from eight of us without send any items in return.

I believe you got some bad info. It is my experience that if Paypal finds in your favor. you will not get a refund if his account is $0.00.
THAT is why scammers LOVE Paypal.

You are absolutely correct. Paypal and security do NOT go together. I had this problem (along with several other Bartertowners) when we had the trouble with reveriestudio. Paypal found in our favor (because we had about 5 claims against him at once), BUT because he had emptied his Paypal account there was "nothing that could be done". It came with a final comment that stated if the paypal account received money, then the funds would be put back in my account.

What ended up happening for us is that the BAD trader's home phone number and address surfaced and we all started "making it personal". I talked to him on the phone (and to his mother). He shipped out everything right after that. He was rather apologetic, BUT this was after a long period of time.

I think all of us except one got their items in the end. Unfortunately, this trader looks like he was selling the same stuff to multiple traders and that could be real trouble. Make it personal. If you get his address and phone number, CALL HIM! I was reluctant to when I found out the phone number, but then decided that it was probably the ONLY way I would either get my stuff OR my money back. It worked.

Pool your resources and when you get his personal information USE it.

I learned from my mistake that you SHOULDN'T send money first. I know there are traders who will tell you that buying is different than trading, but it just ISN'T. It leads to these kinds of problems.

I'm sorry, I don't mean to pontificate or clutter up your thread. But, I thought a viewpoint from somebody who has gone through exactly what you are going through (paying through paypal for items from a low rated BAD trader) would help.

flagg07 wrote:

Valhallansurfer wrote:So far, by checking your posts in the BTR section and through your PMs to me, it looks like Joseph Bartle received $533.93 from eight of us without send any items in return.

Put your eyes back in your head (for now), flagg.

I'm forecasting triple that amount, minimum, when the dust settles.


Eric

I am browsing the white pages for the UK on the net and may have found a hit for a Joesph Bartle... There is 5-6 of them in the UK and a there is a secondary with Lisa Bartle (Elisabeth?). I heard JDubb has his address and passed it to the site admins. I would like that info to confirm. Then I could pass out the phone number if it matches.

I agree that the butcher's bill is going to be much higher when the dust settles. I think that our losses just might be the tip of the iceburg.

A phone # and contact info would be great. We need to mobilize and start contacting him directly. He needs to know he is no longer protected from the effects of his actions by anonymity But let's still keep the high ground while doing so

Sorry, don't mean to sound like I am preaching. I am mainly thinking of what I would LIKE to say to Joseph rather than what I know I should.

Norseman, good move! I looked up his info in a few directories and saw the same entry, but because I do not have "viewing credits" with the BT I could not get the info.

As soon as I leave my office for the weekend, I am going to have very limited Internet and phone access. I would be willing to initiate a contact on Monday, but I can't do much before then-if nothing signicant has happened before that. Will try to check in as I can.

Jason

Odd, I swear I posted a reply to this thread earlier this afternoon, but it appears to be gone (and no message from the mods as I would expected it if was deleted).

Anyways, I didn't say much other than inquire about people's experience with paypal and credit card chargebacks. For those of us that used that form of payment, is that a good way to get the money back? It appears that paypal says they support chargebacks (because I don't think they can stop them), but is paypal going to get angry if you try it (since they are simply the middle man)?

I am glad that someone out there has his home address. At least that way he can't simply disappear.

Here is probably how paypal will react. They will probably give a quote that since we paid not using ebay they will not be able to do anything. However, since so many of us are affected, if we all escalate to a claim they will shut his current paypal account down and any money currently in the account will be divided amongst all. This is small consolation to the group of us that are affected. The best course of action is to apply pressure on him in the UK. I have not had any contact at all since November. Has anyone had contact with Joe? How many of us are affected? I have counted nine but someone mentioned at least 19-20 deals...

Brian