Bartertown.com

Hey all, im basically asking here if my actions are warranted, am I in the wrong and/or what I can/should do.

1st question:
Heres the lowdown:
I recently entered into a trade for some Chaos marines. The sender had lower ref's so he sent first.

Exhibit A: My ad stated I was looking for chaos marines, preferably un assembled but at the least complete.

Exhibit B: During our dealings he stated he had a squads worth of 10 marines he believed to come from a Chaos Battle force and were almost complete but would paypal some money to make up for the missing pieces.

When the Marines arrived they are
A: The Old 2nd Edition static posed chaos marines (where the head is attached to the torso and you just glue the torso to the legs and then add arms) being rather useless to me and
B: i still have not recieved the Paypal for the missing pieces.

heres my question. As I thought they would at the least be 4th edition multipose marines because of our communication (and the fact i havnt seen this style of chaos marines in years) and I havnt received the paypal, am I in the wrong to want to negate the deal and send them back? Would this look bad on me as a trader because the lack of verification on my part? Im perfectly ok with sending my part of the deal if the paypal shows up because I believe a deal is a deal but im just curious.

2nd Question
- What can/should I do when I recieve the package/envelope from someone but the bit is gone and there is obvious damage to the packaging. IE- had a terminator assault cannon sent to me in an envelope but when it arrived there were large holes in it and the cannon was missing.

Well in any deal making I would have made sure they were 4th edition (ok current) or atleast 3rd ed. multi part. And once I received them. I would have messaged him and stated they were not what they were expected to be, and tell him that your sending them back. Asking return postage would be up to you. But really only seems justified if you told him you were looking for more recent multi part figures.

but now.. Contact him, give him a week to reply.. and if nothing give him a neutral feedback at best. Althoug idk if it is warrent a bad feedback. Although traders shouldnt be too lazy, and should know what they are selling. or atleast be specific with any/all problems existing with a model.. and Even post pics if necessary!

It's a toss up. You certainly aren't completely out of line if you are willing to pay yourself to return them. They are not EXACTLY as described. However, it's not the best reflection on you as this guy paid to ship them himself and is getting nothing out of it. If you are unsure of the model, you should always request a picture. If you don't, you risk this. The end result of this is going to make one of you unhappy, and it's always better to pass on a trade than to get into a situation in which one or both of you is unhappy. Having personally had this happen to me before (exactly, except with plague marines), I can say that I simply sucked it up and held up my end of the bargain. But that is mostly because I value my trade rep over a couple dozen plastic men. I can always trade for more plastic men.

Like I said I fully intend to uphold my deal if I get the paypal for the missing pieces of the squad. Trade rep is a big deal for me. What about question 2.

azironlegion wrote:Like I said I fully intend to uphold my deal if I get the paypal for the missing pieces of the squad. Trade rep is a big deal for me. What about question 2.

I say don't.
Don't, "uphold [your] deal," because, at this point, there IS no deal.
You were promised a certain product and did NOT receive it.

If you went to the store to buy a Kenwood stereo but, when you got it home, there was a Radio Shack stereo in the box instead, would you uphold your end of the purchase? Why not? The salesman assured you it was the right product he was giving you.

Let me back up and start from the beginning:

azironlegion wrote:Hey all, im basically asking here if my actions are warranted, am I in the wrong and/or what I can/should do.

1st question:
Heres the lowdown:
I recently entered into a trade for some Chaos marines. The sender had lower ref's so he sent first.

Exhibit A: My ad stated I was looking for chaos marines, preferably un assembled but at the least complete.

Exhibit B: During our dealings he stated he had a squads worth of 10 marines he believed to come from a Chaos Battle force

<<SNIP>>

heres my question. As I thought they would at the least be 4th edition multipose marines because of our communication (and the fact i havnt seen this style of chaos marines in years) and I havnt received the paypal, am I in the wrong to want to negate the deal and send them back? Would this look bad on me as a trader because the lack of verification on my part? Im perfectly ok with sending my part of the deal if the paypal shows up because I believe a deal is a deal but im just curious.

You are BEYOND justified. Stating that you "believe" something is the same as stating that it is fact, as far as I'm concerned, unless followed by a "but I'm not sure" or something, which indicates absolute uncertainty. Even then, I'm kind of strict on it. You made your decision based on information he gave you that was incorrect. The rest of my post will be based on the presumption that you would not have completed the trade, had you known the truth (otherwise, why would you bring it up?). If I'm wrong, then see my note at the end of this section.

Remember that "a deal is a deal" only when you're actually both making the same deal. What if he'd sent you comething different... say, multipart gaunts on sprue (newest edition)? Even then, you're getting PARTIALLY what you wanted (newest edition and multi part). In my eyes, there's no difference. Not getting what you were led to believe would arrive is the same, regardless.

My suggestion -take it for what you will- is to box the models up, PM the guy and explain that you will not be completing the deal, as you did not receive what you were led to believe. If it was me, I'd also tell him that I will gladly hold his minis for him while I wait for him to PayPal me the cost of postage to return the models to him. There is NO VALID REASON why you should have to pay out of your pocket for HIS mistake/error (giving the benefit of the doubt).

Now, that being said, if you still would have completed the deal if you knew that they were the models that they are... but, say, at a lower value, then PM the guy and tell him that. Explain that he was incorrect in his description of the models and you wouldn't have given the trade value to them as you dd if you'd known the full details on them. Give him the option to pay to have you ship them back or renegotiate them at $X value, which is what they are worth to you.

azironlegion wrote:2nd Question
- What can/should I do when I recieve the package/envelope from someone but the bit is gone and there is obvious damage to the packaging. IE- had a terminator assault cannon sent to me in an envelope but when it arrived there were large holes in it and the cannon was missing.

This is kind of up in the air, really. It's the one true "gray spot" that exists on BTown that I can see. You have one or 2 situations where you're looking at it being definitely his fault. Otherwise, it's gray. I'll explain.

Question:
Was it a bubble envelope or a commercially purchased padded envelope? If not, then it is his fault. You don't sent stuff in regular envelopes. Period.

Question:
Was it an old, reused, bubble envelope or commercially purchased padded envelope? If yes, then it is his fault. Whenever you reuse packaging, you take the risk of it breaking down on you. Boxes are sturdy. They can take a lot of wear & tear. Bubble * padded envelopes, though, are just PAPER. They wear down that much easier.
Don't get me wrong, I HAVE reused GOOD bubble envelopes... and I probably will again. If I don't practice due diligence and it breaks down because it's damaged, then that's "my bad," and I have to own up to it.

Most other things are gray.

I mean, Let's say he put it into a NEW Bubble Envelope and it busted open, somehow. That isn't his FAULT. If it was a TRADE, then some will say that he should replace it, since typically, trades include each of us covering our own shipping & he didn't have it insured. If it was a purchase, then some will say it's YOURS to coverm, since you should have asked for insurance. Others will say it's his fault if he didn't OFFER the insurance. Also... Was it an $X.XX, includes shipping price? If so, some will blame you for not ensuring that the cost included insurance. Some will blame him because he didn't buy it or, at least, give you the option.

My head is swimming.

You keeping up? Good. That makes ONE of us.

That is just one example of a gray area. I could go on & on about the fact that there is a belief that the shipper's side isn't complete until his stuff is received, but some hold vehemently onto the fact that it isn't his fault if the stuff goes missing or is broken... Which returns us to the "insurance" debate.

I've gone and given myself a headache, so I can't think coherently enough to have an opinion at this point. I think I'll just have to say, "It's between the 2 parties" is my opinion.

Massawyrm wrote:It's a toss up. You certainly aren't completely out of line if you are willing to pay yourself to return them. They are not EXACTLY as described. However, it's not the best reflection on you as this guy paid to ship them himself and is getting nothing out of it. If you are unsure of the model, you should always request a picture. If you don't, you risk this. The end result of this is going to make one of you unhappy, and it's always better to pass on a trade than to get into a situation in which one or both of you is unhappy. Having personally had this happen to me before (exactly, except with plague marines), I can say that I simply sucked it up and held up my end of the bargain. But that is mostly because I value my trade rep over a couple dozen plastic men. I can always trade for more plastic men.

...and this is where I get militantly *edit*. LOL
All due respect, Massawyrm... and no insult intended... but I couldn't disagree more.

IMO, it is a wonderful reflection on him if he's unwilling to compromise and refuses to pay for shipping to return the models (presuming he doesn't think he should). To hold onto what you think is right, even in the face of public opinion, is quite respectable in my book.
If someone sends you the wrong thing, why should YOU have to pay for HIS mistake? It's happened to me before. A few times. I've received stuff that was signifigantly not as described... Everything from an outright lie to a POSSIBLE mistake to an honest mistake. At NO time did I cough up for shipping. If it's not worth it to them to pay to get the models back, then that is on them.
It might have added to the reputation I have as a "straight shooter" and added to the "stern" factor that some people seem to think I have (which I'm okay with LOL), but it has never hurt my trade rep. I'm at 220+ and rising, with no negatives.

I just don't see where your trade rep would be harmed. It's happened before, where traders have refused to pay shipping to return something that was shipped "in error," and I can't think of a single instance where a negative ref was supported. In fact, and I'm NOT speaking for anyone besides myself, I'd be willing to bet that Lin would support the person who didn't get what he was told he'd receive, over the person who shipped the wrong stuff, if it ever came down to that.

That being said, if this happens to you (which, apparently, it did), I have absolutely NO negative thoughts towards you if you DO pay the return shipping. Makes you a nice guy, in my book. Definitely nicer than me.

I see it as a lesson learned; "Don't send something off, unless you're certain that it's the right thing. If you do, though, be prepared to have to pony up for its' return cost."

Respectfully,
Eric

Well my magical friend, here's the part I get hung up on:

During our dealings he stated he had a squads worth of 10 marines he believed to come from a Chaos Battle force and were almost complete...

I almost completely agree with you and your sentiments. The problem here is that as neither of us have read the communication between the two, we only have this statement to go on. IF he stated pretty much absolutely that this is what they were or he was unsure and denied requests for photos or further investigation, I would TOTALLY agree with you. But that doesn't appear to be the case. The statement above leads me to believe that there was some doubt as to their origins and that azironlegion proceeded anyway without following up on it. There has to be a certain amount of accountability on the part of the recipient as much as there needs to be on the part of the sender. In my case, I was offered 2 dozen OOP primed 2nd or 3rd edition plague marines. And that's exactly what I received. 2 dozen 3rd ed plastic plague marines all in the same pose. Was I happy? Not entirely. But I should have asked for better photos or more specifics. At the time, I had no idea they'd even made plastic ones.

In this case the seller supposedly offered 10 marines he believed to come from a Chaos Battle force. The OP thought they would at the least be 4th edition multipose marines. Without reading the e-mails, it is very hard to actually discern who was wrong and how specific or vague either of these traders were. Specificity is the key to a good trade. Which no doubt is why you enjoy such a high rating with no negatives. I've seen your posts - you don't kid around with the vagaries. This smells like something that went wrong because of faulty assumptions on the part of both sellers. One that the seller understood that he could mean an older battleforce, and one that he meant current edition battleforce. If it is anything but, then yeah, you have a lot of good points. But from the info provided that's what this feels like - which is why I stand my my original statement. I would not ask for return shipping unless I felt I was at no fault in the transaction.

Massawyrm wrote:Well my magical friend, here's the part I get hung up on:

During our dealings he stated he had a squads worth of 10 marines he believed to come from a Chaos Battle force and were almost complete...

<<SNIP>>

VERY valid point.
But you're wrong.

No. I kid.

Seriously, though. You've got a good point. I just see it from a different angle.

"During our dealings he stated he had a squads worth of 10 marines he believed to come from a Chaos Battle force and were almost complete..."

Now, I'm not going to get into the part where he thought they might be 4th edition models. Many people get their "editions" confused and are unsure what edition each game is in (How many times have you seen reference to 6th or 7th edtition 40K models? KWIM). I'm going to focus on the emboldened words:

"I thought they would at the least be 4th edition multipose marines because of our communication (and the fact i havnt seen this style of chaos marines in years)"

(emphasis mine)

First off (and fastest), it was the underlined text that made me presume that something imperative had been discussed. You're right about not knowing the specifics of the PMs, though.

Now, correct me if I'm wrong. to the best of my knowledge, "Battle Force" boxes didn't start coming out until after they did multi-part models. I know there were "Boxed Sets," but I thought a "Battleforce" was relatively new (in the overall scheme of things). *IF* I'm correct about that, it just strengthens the way I feel about it.

Massawyrm wrote:Specificity is the key to a good trade.

Amen, Brotha!

Massawyrm wrote:I've seen your posts - you don't kid around with the vagaries.

Oh! You're just trying to flatter me! LOL
Seriously, though... Learned that the hard way with my second and third trades. Same guy both times, BTW.
In the first one, I just thought that everyone would be as forthcoming about the specifics of their minis as I was, if there was anything of import to note.
WRONG!
Lesson 1: Assume nothing

In the second trade, I learned that you must ask EVERY question you want answered and not presume that the other trader will "understand" that you want "all the details," instead of ONLY answering the SPECIFIC questions you ask
Lesson 2: Seriously. Assume nothing.

At that time (the 1st trade), I had a 0 rating and he had a 10 or so (I didn't get feedback for my 1st BTown trade). I never traded with him a 3rd time, though he tried (at least) 3 more times after that.

Massawyrm wrote:This smells like something that went wrong because of faulty assumptions on the part of both sellers. One that the seller understood that he could mean an older battleforce, and one that he meant current edition battleforce. If it is anything but, then yeah, you have a lot of good points. But from the info provided that's what this feels like - which is why I stand my my original statement. I would not ask for return shipping unless I felt I was at no fault in the transaction.

I would echo a mirror of this comment. If, indeed, more info comes to light showing that enough info was NOT given for him to assume them to be multi-part, then I'd probably change my own stance a bit.

I think this sums it up well:

Massawyrm wrote:I would not ask for return shipping unless I felt I was at no fault in the transaction.

I think I have to admit that I am probably clouded a bit clouded by my own habits, which would have included finding out every specific microscopic tiny little minutia of each and every miniature, likely to include the names he privately called each mini by when nobody else was around. LOL

L8r )
Eric

Thanks for the responses guys.. heres the communcation between us. I did say we may have a deal if "they are what im looking for" but i can see where I may be at fault for not verifying the minis age/edition before hand.. altho i did ask for pictures which were never sent i never followed up on them assuming they would be what i was after.

**Oldest posts are at the bottom**

Re: H: CSM, SM W: $$$, FW, SM, CSM

Sent at: Tue Sep 09, 2008 10:52 pm
by Him
OK, here is the UPS Tracking number, but it may not be active until late tonight or tomorrow:

*****************************

I'll paypal you in a few



Sent at: Tue Sep 09, 2008 10:05 pm
by ME

no its ok. No worries. Just wanted to be sure. Take your time



Sent at: Tue Sep 09, 2008 9:55 pm
by Him

Yeah, we have a deal. Sorry, got busy at work and forgot to paypal you. I'll do it today, and get the package out as well. I'll give you a tracking number once I get it.

Thanks, sorry for the confusion.



Sent at: Tue Sep 09, 2008 9:01 pm
by Me
Hey mate im just wondering if we have a deal? You said you can paypal the money yesterday but I havnt heard from you. If you need more time thats fine i just want to know we have a deal so I can pull the raptors from the posting. Cheers!


Sent at: Mon Sep 08, 2008 6:09 pm
by Me
I would prefer paypal, that way nothing happens to it if thats ok.. my paypal is

***********

Ill let you know when they arrive and will ship out the raptors.



Sent at: Mon Sep 08, 2008 6:05 pm
by Him
Your call, I am good either way. I can paypal it today, otherwise the lot will ship tomorrow or wednesday.


Sent at: Mon Sep 08, 2008 6:00 pm
by ME
Thats fine. do you want to include it with the minis or paypal it to me?


Sent at: Mon Sep 08, 2008 5:54 pm
by Him
So, haven't heard back from my buddies about the extra CSM parts. How about I throw in $8, that is how much you can buy a box of 3 CSM from GW. My local shop is out, otherwise I would have just bought those and sent them all. Let me know.

Sent at: Fri Sep 05, 2008 4:39 pm
by Me
Ok cool. Let me know when you have everything and ship. I will send the raptors once the squad arrives.


Sent at: Fri Sep 05, 2008 4:37 pm
by Him
** address removed**

I should be able to get those bitz no problem.

Sent at: Fri Sep 05, 2008 4:22 pm
by ME
Yea i think we have a deal. One complete 10 man Chaos Marine squad for my 5 man Chaos Raptor squad. Let me know if you can find the bits.

My address is
**address removed**

Whats your address?





Sent at: Fri Sep 05, 2008 4:03 pm
by Him
Cool, I'll work on getting those bitz to you, but if I manage to get them do we have a deal?


Sent at: Fri Sep 05, 2008 4:00 pm
by Me
nothing too specific. Just looking for enough to complete a full squad. They are going to be Iron Warriors so if you have any bionic bits that would be cool but they arent a priority.



Sent at: Fri Sep 05, 2008 2:54 am
by Him
OK, here is what I have. A set of 10 marines, missing the following:

1 set of legs
a 3 or 4 sets of arms with guns, though there are lots of extra ones, just not matching ones.

1 is assembled and primed with good primer, another is almost finished assembled and primed black. 2 other bodies are glued to legs on bases, the rest of the stuff is unassembled and not primed.

I can ask a couple friends, I bet I can gather up the missing pieces this weekend, so it should be a full set of 10. Let me know what you would like to do. I'd be all for it since I need raptors. I'll also see if I have any other CSM bitz I dont need. Looking for any bitz in particular?



Sent at: Thu Sep 04, 2008 11:52 pm
by Him
I know they are in perfect condition, just a matter of all the pieces being there. They should be, but I will let you know. Thanks

Eric


Sent at: Thu Sep 04, 2008 11:42 pm
by Me
Cool. I might be willing to trade the raptors for them if they are complete and in good condition (and what im looking for) Let me know


Sent at: Thu Sep 04, 2008 11:28 pm
by Him
They should have everything, but let me get home and look to make sure, been a long time since I have even looked at them.


Sent at: Thu Sep 04, 2008 11:18 pm
by Me
What weapons do they have? Are they complete (shoulder pads/backpacks)



Sent at: Thu Sep 04, 2008 11:10 pm
by Him
I think they came from a battleforce. I got them in a trade when they were still on sprue, and I started to put some together, then realized I wasn't going to use them. I can try to get you some pics, but my home computer *edit* the bed this week. I'll see what I can do when I get home.


Sent at: Thu Sep 04, 2008 10:45 pm
by Me
Do you have any pics? Is it the chaos marine squad box or just 10 random chaos marines?



Sent at: Thu Sep 04, 2008 10:25 pm
by Him
I think I have about 10 CSM that are partially assembled and some primed black, but I am very careful when I put stuff together. I don't think the arms are on the bodies.

I'd be interested in some raptors maybe.



As stated I never got any pictures but i never pursued them either and I still havnt gotten the paypal for the $8.

Is this the ad you placed that he responded to? viewtopic.php?f=8&t=71827&p=135383#p135383

If so, the answer to question 1 is simple. He did not send the newest models, so send them back return to sender. Deals off.

Answer to question 2 is difficult. As was stated above, the question that needs to be asked is how the envelpoe was damaged. Was it his fault of the US Postal Service's?

Trying to stay as neutral as possible... I'm thinking that you should probably pay to send them back and call it a lesson learned.

You never specified what models you were or weren't looking for (edition), and didn't follow through on getting (a) specifics or (b) pictures.
Alternatively, if you think you can use them, then follow through with your side, once you get the $$.

I don't see where you're obligated to complete your side, though... See my comments above re: battleforce.


Eric

Ya thats the ad, well a very similar one. The "newest models" part next to the marines entry however was not in the original ad. I sent him a message stating how I felt and where we can go from here so we will see what happens next. I sorta feel a partial fault on my end for not verifying further but on the flip side the vagueness of the minis description was on him which Is why im in this gray area of confusion.


As for my second question its been resolved so no worries there.

Question 1. I echo Ironhides latest message.

Question 2. One of my first deals here on Btown was to trade a couple of MK 7 heads for some MK 6 heads (I Love them Beakies). I taped mine to an index card and shipped them in a normal letter envelope. They got there. The other guy just dropped them into te same kind of envelope an mailed it. When it when through the automatic sorter it squeezed them out the end of the envelope, never to be recovered. Simple newbie mistake IMO. Now I save those padded envelopes of questionable integrity, cut enought off of one to hold what I'm sending, seal the items in the padding with tape. I them place the padded bits into a regular envelope, tape the edges send it First Class, as long as it exceeds a certain thickness you can still do Delivery Confirmation, and all in all it is a little cheaper than Priority Mail and gets there just as fast.

But the mistake is on the part of the sender. Now, If he had marked it "Hand Stamp Only", or "Do Not Machine Sort", then It might be the PO's fault, not that you can do anything without having Insured it, which as KTurock has pointed out on numerous occasion if you din't pad it properly, the PO will do Nothing.