Bartertown.com

What do you guys think about these trading rules. From a user with feedback 30.

My rules:
Lower feedback sends/pays first
We pay actual shipping costs
Shipping beyond North America is acceptable, but you must send first regardless of feedback
All shipping must have a tracking or confirmation number

That one about anyone outside of the US sending first regardless of feedback has just lost him a deal from me and got him stuck onto my ignore list.
The feedback mechanism here is the paramount rule when trading. I know the "his trade his rules, take it or leave it" thing, but this is a blatant attempt to circumvent trading guidelines.

I hope his bloody figures rot before he gets a trade for them.
Rob

Feed back is feed back. His American feed back is no better than your Spanish feed back. Feed back is Universal.

robh wrote:What do you guys think about these trading rules. From a user with feedback 30.

My rules:
Lower feedback sends/pays first
We pay actual shipping costs
Shipping beyond North America is acceptable, but you must send first regardless of feedback
All shipping must have a tracking or confirmation number

That one about anyone outside of the US sending first regardless of feedback has just lost him a deal from me and got him stuck onto my ignore list.
The feedback mechanism here is the paramount rule when trading. I know the "his trade his rules, take it or leave it" thing, but this is a blatant attempt to circumvent trading guidelines.

I hope his bloody figures rot before he gets a trade for them.
Rob

Let me start by saying that I agree with you that ratings are ratings. Someone with a 100 in a different country should be as trusted as someone with a 100 in your own.

I do think that you're taking it way too personally and, especially with the last comment, may be over-reacting a bit.

Plus... He's not circumventing trading guidelines. There are no trading guidelines. There are widely accepted common practices, but there are no guidelines.

While the "Powers That Be" recognize certain common practices are an intelligent way to organize a trade and may even promote them as beig valuable and "the best," they purposefully stayed away from creating guides or structures on how trades should or have to be set up. They want us, the traders, to have the freedom to do what makes up happy.

Look at it from the other person's perspective a moment.

Let's say he trades with me, here in the US, and I rip him off. He has 3 major tools at his disposal:
1) He has the USPS, where he can file a Mail Fraud claim.
2) He has the FBI (IC3) who he can file a Mail Fraud claim with.
3) He has the American criminal system which will allow him to file a police report and have it followed up on.

Not to mention the fact that there's ALWAYS the possibility of looking my address up on mapquest and driving here.

Now, let's say YOU rip him off (and I'm only using you because you're the OP. I'm obviously NOT making any accusations). What does he have?

1) Zip
2) Zilch
3) Zero
4) Nada

Ummm... yeah... that's about it.
He can file claims with 1-3 in the "U.S." example above but, IF they investigate, they're not going to get anywhere, typically. Especially not his local PD.
Does Spain have the equivalent of a postmaster? Does he investigate fraud claims? Will he do it for people outside his own country... ESPECIALLY for the low dollar value trades we tend to do here on BTown?
He (the trader in question) doesn't know. Different countries have notoriously different laws, customs and ways of doing things. Who knows if this would be handled similarly in Spain as is would be in the US.

Plus, when it comes down to the wire... he can't take a couple days off of work, hop in his car, and pull up in YOUR driveway.

So, like I said... I totally agree with you that a rating for someone in (enter home country here) is as worthy as a rating for someone in (insert diferent country here). That being said, the nature of Bartertown is that we can all make up our own trade rules.

If he will only trade with people who use Gummy Bears images as avatars... well, he's probably a nut case, but he's welcome to make that rule for himself.

Eric

I think it doesn't matter in the least.

If you don't like his trading rules, don't trade with him.

Simple as that.

Aside from that, I'll tell you that I don't like doing international trades. They take longer, are less visible, and not obvious how to clean up any problems. I haven't gone as far as to take the rest of the world not to bother, but, mechanically, it's a pain.

I've in the past traded with many other countries. In instances where things were a bit "hinky" I've used a third party. Either me or the other person has agreed to send it first to someone that they know on one side of the border or another.

I recently had a trade with someone in that actually insisted that we use an intermediatary. I sent it to an associate of theres here in the states, they then forwarded it to the correct address. This let me track everything that happened in the US Due to the trade I didn't have to send my portion untill the 3rd party recieved it. I then sent my portion and everything swapped hands.

Anything went wrong, it fell upon the 3rd partys head as that was the contact for both sides. Yeah it took a bit longer, but "my intrests" never left the states for the trade.

Escrow is a good choice, especially if it's FREE. But I don't think that one can count on free escrow services. And in most cases, the deal won't be big enough to make it worth it.

Willingness to trade internationally or not, is actually not the issue here. (and yes for me finding international traders (especially those willing to ship to Spain) is a big issue)

He says he is willing to trade internationally, end of argument.

What then follows is an insistence that whatever your feedback as a trader unless you live in the USA he expects you to send first if you want to trade with him. Allowing this sets a dangerous precedent here.

Currently the guideline (accepted practice, common law ruling call it what you will) says lower feedback sends first. We all work it that way and everyone knows the score.

Now this could be the start of lower feedback sends first unless condition a, b, c, d, d2 , d3, e, f2, f3 or h apply.

Unacceptable, confusing and makes a mockery of the feedback system and what it stands for. Feedback is important, but only if it has some purpose.

Rob

JohnHwangBT wrote:I think it doesn't matter in the least.

If you don't like his trading rules, don't trade with him.

Simple as that.

Agreed. I think it's perfectly acceptable to have individual trade conditions, such as the one mentioned here. While shipping order is generally determined by feedback, it's not a rule, and shouldn't be. Every person here is responsible for making his or her own trades. If you want an item that someone else has, you either play by their rules to get it or you move on. Of course the reverse is also true: If someone wants what you have, you set the rules and if they don't like it, they move on.

Rob:

He's saying he's willing to trade internationally, but with conditions - that they send first. It's the same as people who say that buying isn't trading.

Again, nothing on Btown forces anybody to do a trade anywhere or with anyone, nor are there mandates as to how trades or sales must be conducted. Btown works by mutual agreement. If you can't agree, or can't accept terms & conditions, you don't do the deal. Heck, if you just don't like somebody, you don't do the deal (hint, if I were still actively trading, you would be getting very close to being lumped in this category due to inflexibility).

And as Btown is trader-to-trader, and traders aren't bound by each others decisions, I don't care whether a new precedent is set or broken. Btown isnt' the only trading site in the world. Nor the only place I've traded. Quite frankly, if Btown worked the way you suggest, I wouldn't trade here.

As for the rest of your argument, I think you only act this way because you think you still have higher Feedback than he does. With Feedback down, it's entirely possible he has a higher score than you do.

Save your indignation for something that matters.

/John

I think one of the points is why does international shipping change dictation of trade? If I lived overseas I have as much ability to do something about it if someone in the US ripped me off.

MagickalMemories wrote:Now, let's say YOU rip him off (and I'm only using you because you're the OP. I'm obviously NOT making any accusations). What does he have?

1) Zip
2) Zilch
3) Zero
4) Nada

Basically what gives someone the right to dictate otherwise? personal preference.
Now does this open the door to things like: "Shipping to Wisconsin is acceptable, but you must send first regardless of feedback."
If I had something like that I'm sure Id get tons of flack also.

Neither side has protection from a trade gone wrong in international trades. Just don't deal with the bugger and put his inflexible arse on the "Do not trade" list

You have two choices:
1) Trade under his conditions
2) Find someone else to trade with

The sky isn't falling

First and foremost, folks; Let's try to stay polite. It's in the rules, we overlook it a lot, but we still need to remember that we need to try to get along. That includes making inflammatory statements.

Back on topic:

robh wrote:What then follows is an insistence that whatever your feedback as a trader unless you live in the USA he expects you to send first if you want to trade with him. Allowing this sets a dangerous precedent here.

I disagree. I think it sets no precedent. Instead, it supports the existing precedent that traders are allowed to set their own trade standards and guidelines, provided they do no "harm" to others ("harm" being anything specifically against the rules - scamming, back outs, etc.).

robh wrote:Currently the guideline (accepted practice, common law ruling call it what you will) says lower feedback sends first. We all work it that way and everyone knows the score.

You've seen my sig line. You now how I feel about ratings. I've never hidden the fact. Shoot. I still offer to send first to those with higher ratings & I'm at 200+. All that being said, I disagree again. We don't all work that way. Many of us do. Heck, I'd probably go out on a limb and wager that MOST of the active trading community does. that still does not make it any sort of official or semi-official guideline. It's simply a common practice, and those are not enforceable as rules.

robh wrote:Now this could be the start of lower feedback sends first unless condition a, b, c, d, d2 , d3, e, f2, f3 or h apply.

Conditions such as those have existed for as long as I've been trading here. It's nothing new. The easiest to recall is, as stated earlier, "Trading and buying are different." *I* will not deal that way. In fact, a lower rated trader would have an easier time getting minis from me first before they EVER would get money from me first. If I'm trading a mini, it's because I don't need or want it. I'd rather lose THAT than cash. But I digress.

Fact is; it's not anything new.

robh wrote:Unacceptable, confusing and makes a mockery of the feedback system and what it stands for. Feedback is important, but only if it has some purpose.

I don't think it's unacceptable. That is your opinion and I respectfully disagree. I still do not begrudge you the right to have that opinion. I also don't find it confusing. to me, it's rather simple; He's saying, "If we're in the same country, I'll go by artings. Different countries? I won't go out on the line first." Do I AGREE with the P.O.V.? No. Still doesn't make it unacceptable or confusing (to me).
Also... I really think you're exaggerating the effect it has on the ITL, man. One individual won't be bringing down the rating system. If he wants to trade that way, he has the right to. Once he loses enough trades due to his rule, he'll change it. How many 'enough" is, though, only HE can decide.

Finally, I'd like to reiterate; I respect your opinion and am not attempting to belittle it or you. I'm not trying to change it, either. I'm just explaining my point, as well.
It doesn't change my opinion of you that we disagree and *I* would still be willing to trade with you.

You'd ship first, though. Right? LOL

Now does this open the door to things like: "Shipping to Wisconsin is acceptable, but you must send first regardless of feedback."
If I had something like that I'm sure Id get tons of flack also.

When Jason Ticknor was abound, this was a common practice.
Eric

Ive met plenty of traders who have their own special conditions/rules for trading. You either accept it,try to convince them otherwise, or dont trade. Ive run into many traders,with 0 feedback who want you to pay them first before shipping. "Buying isnt Trading", "buying is different",etc. I had a guy who joined 1 day before he PM'd me, lived in another Country, and still want me to send him hundreds of dollars.... When I refused, he insulted me, said I was paranoid,etc.
Fact is the world is full of (insert derogatory term here),& Bartertown can't force anyone with a lower rating to ship first. Just add him to the "foe list".