Bartertown.com

Hello Bartertown,

I've been happily trading here for almost two years now, and I ran into a bit of a situation, so I'm turning here for help for the first time. I sold through here a sizeable lot (a 40k Daemonhunters Grey Knight Army) to a fellow in Canada. We had great communication (I still have all the emails), and not only did I sell it at a pretty good bargain price, I held on to it for about a week or so while he got the money. Long story short, I mailed him the package to Canada and today he emailed me upset that I did not send it as a gift and he refuses to pay what the post office is charging him for it. Then he goes off to say that it's not his problem and leaves it up to me to resolve.

As far as I know, I took a large sum of money in exchange for goods, so in the custom papers I marked it as merchandise, not a gift. I thought that was what I was supposed to do, and he never told me to do otherwise (if I am wrong and it counts as a gift, I'd appreciate a bartertowner to let me know). In fact, he never gave me any instructions on the custom forms, and all the times I have sold items overseas I have listed them as merchandise. The only time I list them as gifts is when they are trades, because in my mind that's what it is: I give you this gift expecting another one in return. Not only did I mark it, but I also paid insurance on it for their worth.

One time I sold a large lot to someone in Germany and he had requested that I mark it as a gift under $50. He then proceeded to claim it was lost, claimed his money back from paypal, and pretty much ripped me off (it was ebay though, not BT). I managed to get some reimbursement from paypal, but they warned me never to do that again because as a gift it's not covered and there's precious little they can do or prove at that stage that I had sold him something.

My question is, this fellow who is otherwise pretty nice, sounds upset and expects me to fix the situation. However, I don't know what I'm responsible for here, nor what I am liable for. I want to be fair, but I don't want to give away my stuff either - I sold him a large lot of mostly NIB (the rest unpainted) stuff (including expensive forgeworld pieces), and now I'm supposed to fork out even more money for him to have it? Am I supposed to pay his import fees for him? Should I have marked it as a gift by default, even though I took money for it? Should I pay to have it shipped back to me then have him pay shipping again, this time as a "gift"? Should I put him in touch with the next person that wanted the lot and see if they want to buy it off of him?

I'm trying to be a fair and decent trader, but I'm not sure what to do in this situation. Whenever I've had unsatisfied trading partners in the past, I've always been quick to even up the balance. But in this case, I don't know what that is. Any and all help would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you for your time.

It wasnt a gift. You sold it. You did the right thing. You have no reason to lie to customs so he doesnt have to pay. The trader is a POS, give him a negative reference, post a Bad Trader thread w/ all proof/Pms/emails, cut your losses & get your stuff back.
Did you get any money upfront from this guy?? You should have. If so, subtract your costs & refund him the difference. Bartertown doesnt need traders like that.

I am in some ways less - and in some ways more- militant about it than Starslayer is. I do, however, agree with him in essence.

YOU DID THE RIGHT THING.

There are some things of importance to note:
(Not directly on the topic of what you're asking about, but in response to something you posted)
At NO time, when making transactions through Bartertown, Ebay or any other site/entity in which you receive something for something of yours (whether it be trading or selling) should you mark the item as a gift. It is not.
The definition(s) of gift (per http://www.dictionary.com) is:

gift
–noun
1. something given voluntarily without payment in return, as to show favor toward someone, honor an occasion, or make a gesture of assistance; present.
2. the act of giving.
3. something bestowed or acquired without any particular effort by the recipient or without its being earned: Those extra points he got in the game were a total gift.

There are more definitions, but these are all that matter. Note the parts I emboldened in the quote box. A gift is something you give not something you trade.
Certainly, at Christmas (or other non-Christian holidays) we exchange gifts... If, however, you only give a gift when you expect one in return, it's not REALLY a gift.

My point is that you should NEVER mark it as a gift UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, unless you are truly giving it away without recompense. It is mail fraud.

Now, on to the actual subject of your post:

The bottom line is that YOU did the right thing. You weren't supposed to mark it as a gift and, as stated, you'd have been breaking the law if you did. I can't speak for Canadian laws, but the ones here in the U.S. are pretty clear. No breaky breaky.

You state that you "took a large sum of money in exchange for goods."
Am I to understand that he paid in full?

If that's the case, then it seems pretty cocky to me that he would, "[go] off to say that it's not his problem and [leave] it up to [you] to resolve." All you have to do is tell him to kiss off. You followed all laws in your country, all established Bartertown rules and dealt with him fairly. You have been a "good" trader. He, on the other hand, has definitely earned a negative reference... though I disagree on filing a BTR on him.

In response to these questions:
...I'm supposed to fork out even more money for him to have it?
Am I supposed to pay his import fees for him?
Should I have marked it as a gift by default, even though I took money for it?
Should I pay to have it shipped back to me then have him pay shipping again, this time as a "gift"?
Should I put him in touch with the next person that wanted the lot and see if they want to buy it off of him?

One word covers it all.
NO.
In response, specifically, to the last question, though, it's a matter of that trader's privacy.
You COULD act as intermediary and ask that person if it's okay if you let the guy in Canada know who he is in case he wants to get rid of the stuff... but don't just give his information out.

There is no balance to even out.
Don't be bullied or threatened into "evening things out." It's 100% on him.
If he threatens a BTR, notify Linrandir. That is ITL intimidation. If he just LEAVES one... Notify Linrandir. That is ITL abuse.

IF you have your money, keep it. tell him his models are waiting for him at his post office and that your transaction is complete. He can't claim the he never received tham. he's acknowledged that they are at his P.O. and that the only reason he doesn't have them is due to his OWN decisions. That's on HIM, not YOU.
I would leave him a NEGATIVE reference for the ordeal. I suggest you leave him a negative or neutral AT BEST (only if he shapes up, though).
I still say not to post a BTR, though... It just doesn't seem suitable for one, IMO.

If you DON'T have all the money... Well, that puts you up against a bit of a wall, then. Doesn't it?
If that's the case, let us know, so we can adjust our advice accordingly.


Eric

I agree with starslayer about you doing the right thing. It wasn't a gift and it's against the law to do so (ask kturock). I DON'T agree with how starslayer wants to go about "fixing" the problem. It seems a little too harsh to me. I try to work things out so everybody is at least a little happy with the trade.

If you have already gotten the payment (and I sure hope you did), then explain to your trade partner that your end of it is done. He will need to pick up his end of it and finish the trade.

Now that I think about it, I am not sure exactly how duties work. Is he sending the package back? Or is he just griping about the fact that he has to pay?

I have done some international trades lately, but I am always leary of them. This example just makes the point more obvious. There is NOTHING you can do about the fact that his country wants him to pay extra for your army. He NEEDS to take it up with the officials in HIS country.

You shouldn't break the law even if he had asked you to during the trade negotiations. I recall Linrandir getting extremely upset with a Bartertowner who did.

I would just let him know that you upheld your end of the trade and he will just have to deal with the problems he is having on his end. It $uck$ to be him, but it really is something on him.

That's my .02.

Karl

...and thanks for posting this question.
You've just helped me make a decision on something I'd recently been riding the fence over...


From now on, I no longer believe in giving a reference when the other person has completed their side of the trade. I will only leave a reference after we BOTh have our portions and agree that the trade is concluded.

Had I been in your shoes on this trade, I'd have -likely- left him a positive ref already (assuming he paid in entirety). I'd be 10 times angrier over this if that was the case.

Eric

We dont have all the facts.(payment,etc.)The package has in essence "been delivered". He is refusing the package. So you have 2 choices.
1) tell him to piss off, if you have the money. Its his job to pick up the package
2) get the package returned to you and subtract any costs from his payment

Maybe i was a little harsh, but this guy is being a real tool. This guy isnt going to be happy unless you pay the fees/tarrifs & that is not your responsibility.

I have to agree with what everyone else has said,you did the right thing,and he wanted you to break the law.....he has no reason to act like a horses butt at all..
Cheers
Steve

This brings up some interesting questions in my mind...

How much was the "merchandise" priced at? The tax isn't that much.

Wouldn't this deal have still fell under NAFTA guidelines? If it's for personal use, he shouldn't get taxed for it.

Thank you everyone for taking the time to answer my post. I have written to the buyer telling him some of the suggestions (e.g. he can send it back for a refund sans shipping, etc), and an assessment of the situation, and that basically there's not much I can do but I will certainly not pay his country's fees. God knows I already have plenty of fees imposed on me by my own country, heheh.

Some small clarifications: yes, he paid in full, and it was an entire Grey Knights army (a few hundred bucks), which I declared in full so I could insure out of my own pocket (I'm still nervous about international trades). It was a sizeable sale, which is probably why the taxes were so high. I don't really know how Canada and the free trade agreement works.

Thankfully I haven't left any feedback yet, I usually do wait until the trade completes on both ends. I'll wait to see how he comports himself in the situation from this point - hopefully he will be a gentleman.

He's a new trader so hopefully this is just his lack of experience in these situations. I did notice that in the time we conducted our trade he accrued one negative reference. Again, I try to give people the benefit of the doubt.

Thanks again everyone.

it's not a gift. asking you to do so is a violation of several federal laws; in both countries.

it's commonly know as tax evasion.

if you did so, and say enclosed a packing invoice, in case it broke open, [as all good shippers do], and customs opened it. they find the invoice and charge him not only the normal fees, but also a penalty that can be up to 3x the fee... they could even decide that it's a serious enough, [expensive enough product] that they even file charges against both parties. you for falsely filing the form, and him for instructing you to do it.
[you weren't planning on taking the felony alone, were you?]

it would affect you chance for many jobs, you no have a felony conviction on your record. it can affect all of your rights, forever..just to save somebody else some $$ that he doesn't want to pay his own government.

hey, drive up here and bring me a tanker full of gasoline. i'll pay your expenses up and what you pay for it. let my own government eat their gas taxes. [sarcasm said from the other side]

if someone requests this of me, i cancel the sale and leave a bad trader ref. he's asking me to violate the law.. in 2 countries. [it would also cost me my job]
might as well send him illegal weapons, drugs, porn or any other prohibited item.

.

Well, good luck. I hope you get everything straightened out. Several members with high trade ratings (100+) have given you advice. Listen to Kturock, he really knows his stuff, its his job. If this guy is a new trader, and he already received a negative, make sure you protect yourself. If he doesnt do the right thing, give him a negative. Other Bartertown members should be made aware of traders like this. Take care.

Hi, I just want to confirm that you did the right thing.

It's not a "gift". It's "merchandise (toys)"

Mark it correctly for your customs, and let them deal with their customs.

Even if they offer to indemnify you for committing mail fraud, the contract is void because you're contracting to do something illegal, so it's unenforceable.

You complied with the trade and the law, so things rest with him, not you.

I agree with the others that you should Neg him.

I'm sorry to bring back to life an old topic, but what I thought was over apparently is not, as I received the following today:

"Hey,

Now that I finally have some time from work and family ordeals, it appears that my decision is already made for me. The parcel is on its way back to you. In any case, it will be cheaper to pay for shipping again than to pay the ridiculous taxes of my dear Canadian government.

So, let me know when you get it back, how much shipping will be again and if you will remember to put it down as a gift this time.

Now, in regards to your answer to my concern last time, I will write you a logic based counter-letter, although that will have to wait for now, plus I'm sure you really don't care about my problems and how/whether or not you cause them. "


It's a good thing that I always read over all shipping paperwork and mark "return to sender if unable to deliver", although I will be charged shipping.

My question to the community is: what is the fairest response?

I'm thinking of just refunding his money, minus the shipping costs (both ways) as well as paypal fees (while I don't believe in having people charge paypal fees when selling, he has literally wasted my time with all this) once I receive them. Is that the correct course of action at this juncture? What irks me is that obviously if I sold the army it was because I needed the money, and it has obviously been spent since the sale was finalized on my end. I'll have to find the means of pooling the money back together, so this whole affair is actually not just a hassle but also a bit of a financial strain.

My second question is, does this now become a negative feedback issue? I feel he is being somewhat abusive and condescending in this entire thing. Not that I expect people to be courteous all the time, but I do think a modicum of respect is to be expected. In addition, he seems to be missing the point entirely and is requesting that I do something illegal, with the veiled implication that it is my responsibility to do things this way "this time," with a forthcoming "logic based response" to what I felt was a fairly logical set of options for him and a statement of the sitaution. There's only so much slack I can give a new trader, and while I feel bad he has problems, we ALL have problems, and I most certainly do not have a sense of entitlement out of it. I also do not appreciate his suggestion that I am somehow to blame or related to his own problems.

Thank you again for your time Btown!
-Endre

Wow Endre. That blows!!!

His letter is rather condescending in it's tone. It was HIS responsibility to pick up HIS package at HIS P.O. in HIS country and pay HIS fees!!!!

The "oh, I didn't really have time to pick it up, so it's on it's way back. And oh, please ship it again and put it down as a "gift" even though it wasn't" thing doesn't fly.

I would ask him for more paypal funds to ship it again (and for your time with this nonsense) and inform him that you will send it EXACTLY the same way as before.

At this point he DESERVES a NEGATIVE and a BTR against him.
It's silly.

Argh!!!!

I hate douchebaggery. And this deal reeks of it.

Burn him. Burn him, I say.

Ah, where is the red-hot poker when you need it...

Karl

Bad trader. Negative reference.

DO NOT MARK AS GIFT. It is not a gift. You are trading/selling. It is fraud.