Bartertown.com

Just to let you all know, and I know Dark Soul feels the same way, the back out issue is getting out of control. I know as a site, we need fresh blood to keep things moving in a positive direction, but I have given negative feedback twice in the last week due to traders backing out after agreements were made.

I have thought about posting BTRs in the forum and if this continues I will. I think the slap on the wrist that negative feedback gives is an excelent tool to stop this without trashing someone entirely. In a few months with a few more positive trades under their belt, they can always point back and say, "Hey, I was new and I didn't understand how things work". I obviously wouldn't trade with any of the ones I had left negative feedback with, but I might if I saw the same from another trader. If they have re-established their "word" then I would give them a chance.

I am not asking for a vendetta to be issued, I am just saying that it is something that needs to be done for the good of the site. I have been here since Bartertown was just a bunch of scrolling posts in like 3-4 categories, and as of just a few days ago, had never given a negative feedback. Admittedly outside of one instance I have never had anything "stolen" from me either, with the exception of time. Been giving away alot of that lately.

This is not a Bad Trader Report or calling down the law on anyone, just an attempt to make things better all the way around.

Thoughts?

[Good suggestion, i've had my share of back-outs, and more surprisingly even with a veteran trader on bartertown watch. I've never posted a BTR post but his tardiness/excuses and finally lack of response may make it a first. Is a slap on the wrist called for? I don''t know, and I think its counterproductive. However, if things cant be worked out through communications, it should be fair to warn other traders from wasting their time.

I'll tell you what... you aren't even kidding, Stanis...

In the last month, I've had NO LESS than 3 different people, all relatively new, back out in the middle of negotiations.
Actually, that is an untrue assessment... I've had them DROP OFF OF THE FACE OF THE EARTH. Each time... We're nearing the end of negotiations, and "BAM!"

Since it didn't reach the "both parties approve" stage in any of the instances, there was nothing I could do.

It sucks and is ridiculous.


Eric

The neg feedback for back outs may have been the single best addition to Bartertown in a while.

How about a compiled list of backer outers similar to the bad trader list?

Must provide:
Proof of backout similar to BTR.
Negative feedback must be left by the requestor to have a name added to the list
Complete 20 good trades in a row to have your name taken down.

Thoughts?

I like the idea. I could have done the BTR thing, but both of mine were relatively new, and I was hoping that a slap would give them some guidance. Both show no remorse, and in my opinion...idiots.

What happens if you back out on a deal on eBay? Not sure since I never have really had it happen.

I'm relatively new, but i can agree on what you guys are doing to an extent. Just a matter of being over zealous about it. But i guess i'd like to clarify what's considered a full back out? and we are all away that well *edit* happens in life and it requires you to re-register your priorities financially in life so i presume that also has to be taken in order.
The reason i'm saying this is from what i've gathered so far regarding backout posts and doing something about it is just if you were to back out once for whatever reason you get a neg feedback slapped on you. Which i guess isnt kind of fair if like lets say one of your tires blow the following day or just something that requires you to pay for maintenance on your car and thus have to sack the purchase of said item to fix an issue far more important. But i mean if its been reported multiple times for "unexpected events" then you can slap a tag on them numering how many backouts they've had so users can be aware the person they are trading with has been flagged for back outs.
I could totally understand if the person fell off the face of the earth after they agreed for the transaction on both ends, with mailing addy's. Maybe it would be better if we had a form of some sort that would be used as a template to easily track info..date,time, items in trade/transaction, mailing frame time, payment. etc. and just have both people slap it on a PM, send it and they can save it incase anything happens and have solid total proof that both ends were set by default if both parties received their side of transaction form/info for the process.

i dunno, may seem just kind of like a jumble of an idea..but i think you guys are getting what i'm at. I'm really just trying to make it clear that its clarified to a point where you can clearly tell what's considered a back out and what isn't. I know everyone is gun ho for cleaning through the rubbish that we have to put up with regarding dealings with other players/sellers/traders, i just don't want to see it be abused.

my 2cents

Back outs are the most annoying thing on this site.

Im aware of the fact that people send out feelers, get lots of responses, and thats cool.

But when youve started negotiating/offering stuff, answering PMs should be a given.
Receive a pm, answer that pm.
If only to type, sorry, no deal.

Ive had as many back out as proper offers, and it really makes me want to reconsider putting any effort in here.

How about someone that contacts you, negotiates a deal, agrees, says he will PM when he sends his out, and then nothing...until I PM him and ask if there is any news. I understand that life happens, and throwing a tire or cathcing the flu affect everyone possibly. This was the reply I recieved:

But I really just don't think I have the heart to give them up! I got downstairs to box them, and started looking them over... and, well, I'm a Menite at heart. I love Cygnar, and have been working on a force for them for awhile, but I can't do that to my Menites.

I'm really sorry. No hard feelings?

Need I repeat, he contacted me first and set up the trade, agreed, and then lost all contact until I saw him active on the forums and PM'd him.

That is a change of heart in the middle of the road. It was a pretty even trade, so not like I was taking him to the cleaners. Once you agree, your word is your bond.

well

i can understand how frustrating it is...but look at it like this.

Dealings on this site requires:
1. patience
2. trust
3. risk
4. tolerance for things like back outs


At least i think so. You're going to bump into some bad apples here and there...i'm glad i haven't yet, and hope i dont. Alot of the people on here are extremely nice and cooperative, and i had my doubts at the start to tie along with my worries.

If there's a option to add tallies to users/traders for back-outs (proven and legitimate back-outs) that would be pretty solid. But i think it should be placed as a different comment than the actual trades they have processed that's marked on them just to keep things simple and organized.

even with all of those things i listed most of the time the payoff is worth the time and effort we take.

flagg07 wrote:How about a compiled list of backer outers similar to the bad trader list?

I don't, personally, think too highly of the idea. My reasoning is that, while annoying as all get out, nobody's been harmed by the back out. Sure, you have lost time & effort... possibly lost deals... but you've still got your stuff.
I think that making a public forum/list of everyone accused of backing out of a trade (in the manner we're discussing) would have a couple negative effects.
First off, I thik it would scare off new traders unnecessarily
Secondly, it would ostracize a lot of traders, since people are more wary of you any time you get on one of those "bad people" lists.
Also, people will start getting reputations as the BTown version of "litigation-happy" and people won't want to trade with them for fear of being nailed if something unforseen comes up.

Take Darksoul's recent post in the BTR forum. He had a good reason to do it. For duscussion sake, let's say he does it a second time. Now, people who watch the boards are going to be certain that DS means what he says about people "improperly" backing out of a trade.
What if he did a third one?
I'd bet money that people would actively avoid trades with him (unless they were just TOO good) because they might think to themselves, "What if something happens & I can't afford to send them, or I have some other reason to cancel the trade? This guy's gonna nail me for it. it's just not worth it."
So, that's my thought.
I think your heart is in the right place... I just think there's too much space for problems.

thefrexican wrote:I'm relatively new, but i can agree on what you guys are doing to an extent. Just a matter of being over zealous about it. But i guess i'd like to clarify what's considered a full back out?

<SNIP>
The reason i'm saying this is from what i've gathered so far regarding backout posts and doing something about it is just if you were to back out once for whatever reason you get a neg feedback slapped on you. Which i guess isnt kind of fair...

A full back out is where both parties agree to the terms of a trade and signal that they are going to complete it (by saying "It's a deal," exchanging addresses, saying when they are going to send the item, etc), then fail to live up to their end of the bargain for ANY reason.
Sometimes, a better offer came in at the last minute.
Sometimes, their car broke down & they need to save every penny they have for repairs.
Sometimes, they can't bear to part with little pieces of plastic & metal because they have so much time & effort into them.

Whatever the reason, that is what a full backout would be.

Now, only the biggest of a-holes is going to slap you with a negative if you back out for a "good" reason, even if they suspect you're lying... until they are certain you're lying.
There was a recent thread in the BTR on that, too. 2 traders agreed to a trade, one backed out, saying he just had job problems & was now only SELLING models. The trader was fine with this & was not going to leave a negative ref... until a few days later, when he saw a post from the guy that offered those same models up for sale with an addendum that the guy would trade for certain items if money wasn't available.
It looked like the guy was lying, so the other trader went back & left a negative & BTR on him.

If you tell someone you don't want to complete the trade because (enter reason here) and you need cash over trades, any guy who'd leave you a negative would be "lashed" in public for being so shallow.

thefrexican wrote:Maybe it would be better if we had a form of some sort that would be used as a template to easily track info..date,time, items in trade/transaction, mailing frame time, payment. etc. and just have both people slap it on a PM, send it and they can save it incase anything happens and have solid total proof that both ends were set by default if both parties received their side of transaction form/info for the process.

i dunno, may seem just kind of like a jumble of an idea..but i think you guys are getting what i'm at. I'm really just trying to make it clear that its clarified to a point where you can clearly tell what's considered a back out and what isn't. I know everyone is gun ho for cleaning through the rubbish that we have to put up with regarding dealings with other players/sellers/traders, i just don't want to see it be abused.quote]

It's a nice thought, but I doubt it's viability. Each trader has his own way of doing things. Most wouldn't, likely, use the form unless asked to by a trade partner who does use it. I know that's the category *I* fall into.
The loose structure is a very popular thing here.

As for seeing it abused... It's been the policy for a while, now. I haven't seen any signs of misuse yet.

Cheers!

Eric

tolerance for things like back outs

When the back out costs me money and time getting my end ready.. Prepare to get a NEG.

smilbuta wrote:

tolerance for things like back outs

When the back out costs me money and time getting my end ready.. Prepare to get a NEG.

that's true but, i'm just saying...you're always at risk trading/buying/selling with someone who you have no clue about and its across the globe/country. So i mean, i'm not saying its a good thing or anything its just one of the factors that will always be there, whether they show their face or not and you come to terms that one way or another you may get screwed on a blue moon. Though when it breaks down to multiple occurances..that's when we can sit down and think through for a solution.

TheFrexican-No offense, but you simply have not been here long enough to be fed up with having people back-out on deals. Wait a bit, your patience will run out.
Anyway, its an OPTION- no one is forced to leave a negative reference. If the sob story is good enough, maybe they'll let you slide....but maybe not.

starslayer wrote:TheFrexican-No offense, but you simply have not been here long enough to be fed up with having people back-out on deals. Wait a bit, your patience will run out.
Anyway, its an OPTION- no one is forced to leave a negative reference. If the sob story is good enough, maybe they'll let you slide....but maybe not.

you're right, but i'm not arguing with you at all. I totally respect the fact that people are getting totally fed up and i can see why its getting to this point. The only thing i was just saying is that i'm cool with the idea of tossing something up, but as long as its controlled, having the proof you need that's legitimate to put up a neg ref, or just a side column notifying the occurances of back outs.


edit:
You're probably right, it is kind of a loose feel here, which nice and i enjoy. But i dont want to drag this on and on with what i have to say regarding it. So is there any proposition to what to do with backouts? just toss up a neg feed depending on the situation of the back out and whether you feel justified to do so after consulting with the proof you have of the person?

I almost hate to say it, but I agree with MM on this one.
Stanislav, in the example you gave, you have every right to leave a negative reference. It's up to you.
I thought that we had discussed this in other threads. If someone backs out AFTER you have had an "agreement", then you were allowed to leave a negative and a listing in the BTF.

BUT, I agree with MM wholeheartedly that if you add another LIST with people who have just backed out on deals they didn't want to commit to, then Bartertown would certainly be "litigation-happy" and I think that you would not only scare off new traders but lessen the intensity of trading amongst the experienced traders.

I understand the frustration, but I personally feel that if you do NOT have the agreement, you can't give another trader a black mark for leaving a trade before it comes to fruition.

Now, if they did agree, like Stanislav's example, then I say leave a negative reference and move on.

Just my .02.

Karl