Bartertown.com

I recently had a deal fall through. The details in short:

-I had some CCG items the trader wanted
-We worked back and forth for awhile, trying to figure out an appropriate deal. Since the cards were worth approximately 100$ US, I wanted a sizeable amount of 40k figures. We eventually settled on 40 Dark Eldar Warriors.

- They had been sending me pictures of minis in the negotiations of the deal regularly. All the figures pictured were in good shape, nothing that I could see was wrong. When we settled on the 40 dark eldar warriors, they sent a picture, which was somewhat out of focus. Their previous pictures showed figs in very good condition, so I wasn't worried. I assumed there would be some paint stripping work ahead of me, and possibly some mold line removal and a bit of greenstuff work.

-They were a new trader, so I insisted that they send first (feedback of 2).

-I received the figs in good time. When I opened the box however, I was greatly surprised. The figs were in possibly the worst shape possible. Almost every single one was assembled incorrectly (and they were plastic figs, so I couldn't take them apart), excess glue was all over them, pieces had fallen off in the transit, many of them had poses that were warped from glue, heat or god knows what else. Basically out of all the figs, none were even in 'good' shape.

- When I confronted the shipper, they said that they thought the condition was 'fine', but if I wanted I could only send part of the CCGs, my choice. I declined, as the figs were essentially useless.
- We opened negotiations again, but we weren't able to come to an agreement.

- I paid out of pocket to ship the figs back.

So, basically, I feel that there was some definite deceit here. I don't know how anybody could have thought that these figs were 'fine' by any means. This guy wasted my time and money, and I'm obviously pissed about it. So the question is: What type of action would be appropriate? A neutral? A BTR? Negative, or a Neg with a BTR? Just looking for some feedback. Thanks for reading.

That's going to have to be up to you:

Good: You would trade with this person all of the time, everything is as advertised or better, good packaging, on time.
Neutral: The items were a bit late, some were bent and broken, not quite what you want but its not worth a refund. You would trade with this person still.
Bad: The items were grossly misrepresented or ripped you off. You would never trade with this person again.

That is from the feedback form, copied & pasted.

Which one suits you better?

Sounds to me like you're describing a "Bad."
I know that I, personally, would have (a) made THEM pay to ship back and (b) left a negative.

Good luck.

Eric

--One more reason to support the "Lower rating? You ship first" custom.

I've had this happen a time or two,usually i ship them back to the person,and don't leave any feedback,as i feel a trade wasn't made,thus no feedback should be left,thats just me however

Cheers
Peace

You saw a pic?? Were the figs the same one in the pic? Was the pic clear??

[quote="starslayer"]You saw a pic?? Were the figs the same one in the pic? Was the pic clear??[/qote]

I had been shown pics of this person's figs the entire time, mostly individual pics. The ones of the DE were of the whole group, and the pic was somewhat fuzzy. Considering the history of communication and quality of figs sent in previous pics, I hadn't much reason to find the pic quality fishy.

Well, I don't know the trader, so I won't make this a statement of fact, but it SOUNDS like you were purposefully misled.

Eric

i hate to say it, but i know people, a couple adults and 1 person under 16, whose minis look like they've used an entire tube of glue, on each mini.

1 of the adults, never paints his figures. he had an entire 40K IG tank army, and they were the worst looking, adult built models i've ever seen. he wanted to trade them to me, retail for retail, for some, well painted, 1000 sons csm.
needless to say, i said no.
not only were most of them glue bombs. none of the pieces had the flash trimmed off.

needless to say, he thought their condition was 'fine' and 'just needed to be painted', which he didn't have the time for.

.

kturock wrote:i hate to say it, but i know people, a couple adults and 1 person under 16, whose minis look like they've used an entire tube of glue, on each mini.

1 of the adults, never paints his figures. he had an entire 40K IG tank army, and they were the worst looking, adult built models i've ever seen. he wanted to trade them to me, retail for retail, for some, well painted, 1000 sons csm.
needless to say, i said no.
not only were most of them glue bombs. none of the pieces had the flash trimmed off.

needless to say, he thought their condition was 'fine' and 'just needed to be painted', which he didn't have the time for.

.

Yeah, that's believable. I'm always worried that my minis will look like that

Judging by the comparative states of their other figs that they took pictures of and sent to me though, there's an obvious difference. Some of the figs they had were pretty nice looking. And the 'fuzzy, out of focus' picture makes me really think that they knew what they were doing.

At this point I'm likely going to leave negative feedback.
Should I leave a BTR for further effect?

Honestly, at this point, I wouldn't.
BTR's are more for scammers of a "higher" caliber.
He's more like someone who just tried to slide something by you.

Keep your proof, though... Just in case.


Eric

I would not leave a negative....
That is why we use the feedback... he had a lower rating, so shipped first, ALLOWING you to accept or refuse the minis. you refused. the system worked!
as for a negative, without proof of an actual attempt at deceit, which you do not have, does it warrant it? In fact, he has a better shot at a negative on you than the other way around.
You guys agreed on a trade
He sent pictures.
you said "ok"
he sent
then you changed your mind.

At least you paid to ship the minis back, because if it was me, and you said you changed your mind after pics were sent, etc, and that you would not send my minis back unless I paid for them, that is pretty much extortion in my book.

I wouold count your blessings on this and let it go.
but, thats just me...

-Anglacon

Anglacon wrote:I would not leave a negative....
That is why we use the feedback... he had a lower rating, so shipped first, ALLOWING you to accept or refuse the minis. you refused. the system worked!
as for a negative, without proof of an actual attempt at deceit, which you do not have, does it warrant it? In fact, he has a better shot at a negative on you than the other way around.
You guys agreed on a trade
He sent pictures.
you said "ok"
he sent
then you changed your mind.

At least you paid to ship the minis back, because if it was me, and you said you changed your mind after pics were sent, etc, and that you would not send my minis back unless I paid for them, that is pretty much extortion in my book.

I wouold count your blessings on this and let it go.
but, thats just me...

-Anglacon

I hear what you're saying. I would agree with you too if it wasn't for the fact that 1) There's some possible deception due to the fact that the picture quality was drasticly different from everything else that they sent.
2) The figs were obviously a much, much worse quality, and 3) they offered to accept a drasticly lower trade value for the figs after I complained about the quality. If someone does a trade and honestly believes that the quality is fine, they don't drop the asking price on a previously agreed amount as soon as someone complains about the quality. They say, "Hey, you agreed!".

I definately could simply count my blessings that I didn't get screwed. But it really dosen't make up for the fact that it honestly looks like they tried and that it cost me cash to send it back. Sure, we're both out some cash, but I'm willing ot bet they were counting on me thinking twice about wasting the cash to send the items back and instead settling with a much cheaper shipping cost by simply finishing the deal.

Anglacon wrote:I would not leave a negative....
That is why we use the feedback... he had a lower rating, so shipped first, ALLOWING you to accept or refuse the minis. you refused. the system worked!
as for a negative, without proof of an actual attempt at deceit, which you do not have, does it warrant it? In fact, he has a better shot at a negative on you than the other way around.
You guys agreed on a trade
He sent pictures.
you said "ok"
he sent
then you changed your mind.

At least you paid to ship the minis back, because if it was me, and you said you changed your mind after pics were sent, etc, and that you would not send my minis back unless I paid for them, that is pretty much extortion in my book.

I wouold count your blessings on this and let it go.
but, thats just me...

-Anglacon

Well, I respect differences of opinion and all, so PLEASE don't take this personally.

I think you're dead wrong. I'm quoting a line of yours to support my thought:

That is why we use the feedback...

...and if the OP doesn't use the feedback system, it WON'T work for the next guy. That's why we HAVE the feedback system... to show how good a trader someone has proven himself to be.

By BTown rules, a trade is considered to have occurred once each person agrees to their side of the deal. Whether or not a person backs out after that is inconsequential. It was still a trade.
Since the other guy decided to ship stuff that was deceptively represented, he has broken one of the unspoken rules of trading. According to the guidelines I posted above for warranting good, neutral or negative references, if YOU were the OP, would YOU trade with the guy again?

Again, no disrespect... People with opinions like yours... The "no harm, no foul, I'll just send them back and not leave a reference" opinion... make it easier for guys like that to eventually get one over on someone.

If it's not shown in his references, then someone who is doing their due diligence and checking his ref's won't KNOW that this situation ever occurred. THAT individual might be a brand new trader with only 1 or 2 trades under their belt who thinks they HAVE to keep these minis, now.

It's not fair to the next guy NOT to follow through.

Now, as for "extortion;" can you explain WHY you would consider it that? Again, no insult intended.... I just don't see it.
Why should Trader A have to pay to ship the minis back to Trader B, when Trader B misrepresented his items? That is Trader A spending money on something that he isn't getting anything for.

My point of view is that these models were misrepresented. There's NO way I'm going to accept them. If they're not mine, and never WERE mine, then I'm not responsible for them. It's not like it's a case of buyer's remorse. IF, in that case, you changed your mind & found someone kind enough to take them back, THEN I'd say it was your responsibility to pay for 'em.

What if you ordered something from a catalog? Say, a stuffed Giraffe for your neice who LOVES Giraffes. When it arrived, it was just a Teddy Bear with Giraffe-like markings. Should YOU have to pay to return it to the company? Heck no. You're calling customer service to complain & they're going to send you a UPS label or something... as well as the correct item to replace it... and PROBABLY a partial refund.

Same thing, IMO. Just, in this case, I wouldn't be expecting anything more than for the sender to pay for the return shipping.

Eric

I'm a bit confused with the pictures. Were the pics that looked good not pictures of what you were trading for? If the one pic of the items you traded for was fuzzy, then I have to say you can't cry foul at all if you agreed on the trade. I can absolutely understand why you would think they would be good based on the other pics, but I would have asked for pics that were of the same photographic quality as the others.
I agree with Anglacon. If the trader was purposefully trying to mislead you, then negative feedback should always be left. Since you have absolutely no way of knowing this for sure, I don't think you can leave bad feedback. I would have asked the trader to pay the shipping back stating that he misrepresented the models by showing you great pics of other stuff and then a fuzzy pic of what he was actually selling, but since that time has passed, I would just let it go. Like Anglacon said, the system worked. You saw the stuff, it was junk, you sent it back to him. That trader will never get some positive feedback if he keeps this up. Thank B-Town for that feedback system. That's what makes this site work.
Now that I have thrown out my $.02, good luck to you with whatever decision you make.

- Cypher

Ok... I think I have a first for an internet message board....
A post has changed my mind. MagickalMemories is absolutely right. The feedback system made the OP have the trader ship first. The trader's feedback rating was too low to trust. If this trader really misrepresented the models saying that they looked just like the great looking ones shown in the good pics, then the bad feedback needs to be left. If he told you the models looked good in his opinion, even though the pic showed you no detail, then he just has a bad opinion and you may want to leave neutral feedback instead. It really comes down to whether or not you would do another trade with the guy. If you would, thinking that this was just a guy's bad opinion of his models, and make sure you saw good pics next time, then neutral is appropriate. If you don't trust the trader at all because you are pretty sure he tried to pull a fast one, then leave the appropriate feedback.
I went and read the forum rules after I read MagickalMemories post (I was writing my original post before his post was listed) and this is what should be done. A trade is established when two people agree to terms. If it went good, bad, or neutral, feedback must be left. If the trader is really a good trader, he'll get out of the whole after making some good trades. And if the trader leaves you negative feedback in retaliation, that is against the rules. You can appeal the bad trader report to Linrandir.

Again, a very special thank you to MagickalMemories for opening my eyes. If I am ever in this situation, I know exactly what I will do.
So, there is my now $.04 on this subject.

Again, a very special thank you to MagickalMemories for opening my eyes. If I am ever in this situation, I know exactly what I will do.

Wow.
I think that's kind of cool.
I'm glad that something I posted was able to help.

Now, since I've opened your eyes about one thing, CYPHER, maybe we need to talk about this whole "Turning traitor against the Emperor" thing...
LOL

Eric